On Nazism - Page 7

trux · 10-09-2001, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:

No different whatsoever than the flag waving patriotic emotion in America today.

Oh my. What a foolish, foolish comment. The flag waving in America today does not come from supporting the slaughter of thousands, millions of people. It comes from respecting and remembering the thousands of OUR people who were slaughtered senselessly. After the attacks on NY and DC thousands of people did not enlist to follow blindly a leader who's policies they knew nothing about, to support the outright and blatent destruction of an entire race of people.

To compare the patriotism of the Nazis to the patriotism being shown by Americans pulling together after such a tragedy is utterly mind-boggling to me. It makes me sick.

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a bunch of long hairs.
trux

Lifetime · 10-09-2001, 01:32 AM

I think the discussion here has turned into "Are Americans hopelessly blinded by National Patriotism" and "Is that a bad thing if you are"

I feel that many Americans can keep a clear head. Naturally, an overly biased opinion leaves no room for alternatives, and likewise an overly patriotic attitude can evolve into one race, or one nation being raised above all others.

Its a matter of perspective I feel. If you say, love your country, and are overwhelmed by patriotism for it, then doesnt that make you raise it above other countries? If you have a favourite, then dont you love that more than anything else?

However, this does not always degenerate into a feeling of National or Racial supremacy. Patriotism can be carried to a certain extent, until it turns into extremist behavior. A very good example of this? No offence, but this very thread. A closed mind, which equates to "my country before all else", can and will affect one's judgement. Read trux's post (no offence). It makes him sick to see Nazi Germany compared to America? Is it right that any nation be raised on such a pedastal? I say that Americans can and have been(myself included) fiercely defensive of their nation, be they right, wrong, or merely misdirected. Patriotism in the "good" sense would be pride of one's country, while accepting that it does have failings, and understanding that country's weakness. I think Dio(correct me if I'm wrong) is trying to say that patriotism leading to the exclusion of any other contradicting opinion can be very harmful, as in the case of Hitler. He could come to no compromise to the "Aryan" race, and he could have no blemish on his Third Reich, and he used all the power he had to make sure that his nation was pure in his eyes. The Taliban is the same way. They are an extremist Islamic group bent on imposing their own form of Islam on Afghans, whether they like it or not. They can stand no imperfection in their government, and in their country(women are viewed as such an imperfection). They are highly defensive of their regime, and can take no criticism(they call the West a bunch of Infidels) because of their single-minded mindset. They are no different from the Nazis. They try to form Afghanistan to how they think it should be, regardless. This is a form of BLIND patriotism.
However Dio, I dont believe that Americans can ever be blinded in such a way. Our very civilisation is BUILT on the concept of FREEDOM. We fight wars and we invade nations for the sake of FREEDOM. And Freedom means Freedom in Speech, Thought and Deed. Freedom does not allow for such a closed mindset because the mind is not FREE to wonder, to think, to express an opinion. Freedom is so deeply ingrained into the American lifestyle that it too can become a form of opression. We can believe in our freedom so much that we can also become complacent, so secure in our foundations that we have nothing to hold to when those foundations are uprooted. But however arrogant and self-righteous and defensive we become of ourselves and our nation, there will always be other people with the right to express their different opinions, to bring us down, to balance us out. Thats where people like you and Yorick come in. I wont say either of you is wrong, but you're both right. There are always two ways to look at something, and whenever we become too used to one way, there will always be people who tell us to look at it from a different angle.

The difference between the US and Nazi Germany? The Germans had nobody to tell them of the other angle.

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No-Name Face

Diogenes Of Pumpkintown · 10-09-2001, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Debaser:
The entire point of your argument is completely misdirected. How dare you even compare, or comprehend, that what is going on now has any parallel to the Nazi party and Hitler? Nazis are about hatred towards a group of people...what has that remotely have to do with the actions the US has chosen to take?? WE were the attacked ones, first of all. In a time of alleged peace, WE were attacked and OUR citizens were the ones who paid the price for hatred. HOW DARE you even try to compare any actions the US has taken with the extreme, disgustingly ignorant regime of Hitler and the Nazi party? I cannot possibly overemphasize the foolisheness of your mindset, so I'll just stop now.

I would answer you, but there is no point whatsoever, since you are arguing against a position I never took, having misread and misunderstood my posts. So nevermind.

Liliara · 10-09-2001, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cloudbringer:
Nah.. I'll just say "I told you so!" alot!

Cloudy

O.k., O.k., I deserve that! LOL

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Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)

Diogenes Of Pumpkintown · 10-09-2001, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by trux:
Oh my. What a foolish, foolish comment. The flag waving in America today does not come from supporting the slaughter of thousands, millions of people. It comes from respecting and remembering the thousands of OUR people who were slaughtered senselessly. After the attacks on NY and DC thousands of people did not enlist to follow blindly a leader who's policies they knew nothing about, to support the outright and blatent destruction of an entire race of people.

To compare the patriotism of the Nazis to the patriotism being shown by Americans pulling together after such a tragedy is utterly mind-boggling to me. It makes me sick.

I am rapidly running out of patience with people who apparently don't bother to try to understand what is being said. Go be sick, I don't give a damn.

Diogenes Of Pumpkintown · 10-09-2001, 01:45 AM

Lifetime, I don't agree with everything you said in your post, but I do agree with a lot of it, but the main thing I want to tell you right now is that I very much appreciate your obvious effort in reading this thread and thinking about what was actually being said. Thank you for that.

Now, I've had about as much debating as i can take for today. Goodnight all

Liliara · 10-09-2001, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
I am rapidly running out of patience with people who apparently don't bother to try to understand what is being said. Go be sick, I don't give a damn.

Let me get this straight, those that don't agree with you are sick?! Well by all means, this is an illness that I am happy to have!

------------------

Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)

Diogenes Of Pumpkintown · 10-09-2001, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liliara:
Let me get this straight, those that don't agree with you are sick?! Well by all means, this is an illness that I am happy to have!

Okay, one more post

Is there some disease in the air which prevents people from reading posts accurately? Liliara, I was referring to what he said to me, that he felt "sick". I was not stating that anyone who disagrees with me is sick. That's all. Clear?

Liliara · 10-09-2001, 02:15 AM

Ahhh... once again, my bad and my apologies!

------------------

Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

"I've had it up to here, listening to a small segment of people try to put down America! America's the greatest land on Earth, and we oughta be proud of what we have! I'm proud of America, I'm proud of our people, and I'm gonna prove it. We're American and DAMN proud of it! Frankly I'm getting a little ticked off...go ta ****" Dink (if anyone knows who originally said this, please let me know!)

WOLFGIR · 10-09-2001, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
Arrrrggggghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wolfgir, this is not directed against just you, but to many people in this thread.

The point of this thread is NOT to say that Americans are Nazis. The point is about the sentiment of patriotism, of blind flag waving loyalty to one's nation and government, a MORALLY NEUTRAL position which gives those same governments immense power to do both good and evil from the unquestioning support of the people.

Hey No problem!

But I tried to look at it in a very big sence, and tried to actually find a few similarities. Mostly to point out that we all are close to the rim when a country goes through a crises to cling to ideals and natinality. It´s a natural event and not necesarily a bad one. Sometimes nations come out on the good sside of things after a catastrophy. But I can understand your ARRRGH, and sorry if I took it a bit to far. I´m not saying that you compared US with Nazis, but the topic kinda begged alittle for it.. scuse me!

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Howling to the moon, cause this world seems so far away..
Wolfgirs lair
once-upon-a-paper

10-09-2001, 01:32 AM	#62
Lifetime Red Dragon Join Date: March 3, 2001 Location: Scotch College, Melbourne Posts: 1,503	I think the discussion here has turned into "Are Americans hopelessly blinded by National Patriotism" and "Is that a bad thing if you are" I feel that many Americans can keep a clear head. Naturally, an overly biased opinion leaves no room for alternatives, and likewise an overly patriotic attitude can evolve into one race, or one nation being raised above all others. Its a matter of perspective I feel. If you say, love your country, and are overwhelmed by patriotism for it, then doesnt that make you raise it above other countries? If you have a favourite, then dont you love that more than anything else? However, this does not always degenerate into a feeling of National or Racial supremacy. Patriotism can be carried to a certain extent, until it turns into extremist behavior. A very good example of this? No offence, but this very thread. A closed mind, which equates to "my country before all else", can and will affect one's judgement. Read trux's post (no offence). It makes him sick to see Nazi Germany compared to America? Is it right that any nation be raised on such a pedastal? I say that Americans can and have been(myself included) fiercely defensive of their nation, be they right, wrong, or merely misdirected. Patriotism in the "good" sense would be pride of one's country, while accepting that it does have failings, and understanding that country's weakness. I think Dio(correct me if I'm wrong) is trying to say that patriotism leading to the exclusion of any other contradicting opinion can be very harmful, as in the case of Hitler. He could come to no compromise to the "Aryan" race, and he could have no blemish on his Third Reich, and he used all the power he had to make sure that his nation was pure in his eyes. The Taliban is the same way. They are an extremist Islamic group bent on imposing their own form of Islam on Afghans, whether they like it or not. They can stand no imperfection in their government, and in their country(women are viewed as such an imperfection). They are highly defensive of their regime, and can take no criticism(they call the West a bunch of Infidels) because of their single-minded mindset. They are no different from the Nazis. They try to form Afghanistan to how they think it should be, regardless. This is a form of BLIND patriotism. However Dio, I dont believe that Americans can ever be blinded in such a way. Our very civilisation is BUILT on the concept of FREEDOM. We fight wars and we invade nations for the sake of FREEDOM. And Freedom means Freedom in Speech, Thought and Deed. Freedom does not allow for such a closed mindset because the mind is not FREE to wonder, to think, to express an opinion. Freedom is so deeply ingrained into the American lifestyle that it too can become a form of opression. We can believe in our freedom so much that we can also become complacent, so secure in our foundations that we have nothing to hold to when those foundations are uprooted. But however arrogant and self-righteous and defensive we become of ourselves and our nation, there will always be other people with the right to express their different opinions, to bring us down, to balance us out. Thats where people like you and Yorick come in. I wont say either of you is wrong, but you're both right. There are always two ways to look at something, and whenever we become too used to one way, there will always be people who tell us to look at it from a different angle. The difference between the US and Nazi Germany? The Germans had nobody to tell them of the other angle. ------------------ No-Name Face

10-09-2001, 01:45 AM	#66
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown Banned User Join Date: August 9, 2001 Location: ... Posts: 694	Lifetime, I don't agree with everything you said in your post, but I do agree with a lot of it, but the main thing I want to tell you right now is that I very much appreciate your obvious effort in reading this thread and thinking about what was actually being said. Thank you for that. Now, I've had about as much debating as i can take for today. Goodnight all

10-09-2001, 02:15 AM	#69
Liliara Red Wizard of Thay Join Date: August 17, 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 874	Ahhh... once again, my bad and my apologies! ------------------ Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar LH Member "I've had it up to here, listening to a small segment of people try to put down America! America's the greatest land on Earth, and we oughta be proud of what we have! I'm proud of America, I'm proud of our people, and I'm gonna prove it. We're American and DAMN proud of it! Frankly I'm getting a little ticked off...go ta ****" Dink (if anyone knows who originally said this, please let me know!)

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