Does your country have a "pledge of allegiance"?

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer: Yes, it is, anmd I have no problem with America having a pledge (of course, if I did, I know you would all cease and desist immediately ). I absolutely agree with your ideasd about personal responsibility, but try explaining that to a 7-year old who gets taunted in the playground because he doesn't join in. I don't think he'll grasp it. That's what gets me a bit about it - it's institutionalised in the schools. It takles youngesters rtight at the moment when they are the most impressionable and the least likely to have the force of personality to dissent, and impresses on them the kind of "We'll all spit on anyone who dares suggest there is somehting wrong with our country" mentality. "One nation, indivisable" - in other words, this suggests to the youngsters "If you dissent with America on some issue, you are breaking the pledge, and are not a true American"

Oh definately. Young children are certainly more susceptible to peer pressure, especially in relation to matters which adults feel passionate about. However, in relation to thi it is up to the individual parents to ensure that their children recieve an even-handed approach to patriotism. Your neighbours may frown at the way you teach your children, but you can't let that act as a deterrant to you if it is something you feel strongly about, whether you be a 'patriot' or not.

When I was twelve there was a girl at my school who's family refused to give her the various 'consumer' products that the rest of us kids were raving about (television, action figures, computer games, trading cards etc). She was seen as a little wierd by some as she didn't really get involved in the child pop culture of the time, but she herself had been taught from day one to value her own individuality over the opinions of other people, and so she didn't mind what the other lad and lasses had to say about her lack of hair glitter and music CDs [img]smile.gif[/img] At the time I thought her family must have been a bunch of losers. Now, in retrospect, I can see how wise they were to not blindly give in to what their society tried to pressure them into thinking was 'normal'.

We can proclaim how we think other people should live until the cows come home. But all we really have the power to do is mind our own business, and get along with others in our community as respectfully as our individual beliefs allow [img]smile.gif[/img] We humans can't survive on our own, we need an inter-dependant community to provide us with the necesities of life. But we need not sacrifice the integrity of our own sovereign principles in order to appease an angry or offended mob. So pledge your allegiance to the flag if you like, or don't, it's all perfectly fine so long as you are comfortable with who you are and why you do things the way you do.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: Oh definately. Young children are certainly more susceptible to peer pressure, especially in relation to matters which adults feel passionate about. However, in relation to thi it is up to the individual parents to ensure that their children recieve an even-handed approach to patriotism. Your neighbours may frown at the way you teach your children, but you can't let that act as a deterrant to you if it is something you feel strongly about, whether you be a 'patriot' or not. When I was twelve there was a girl at my school who's family refused to give her the various 'consumer' products that the rest of us kids were raving about (television, action figures, computer games, trading cards etc). She was seen as a little wierd by some as she didn't really get involved in the child pop culture of the time, but she herself had been taught from day one to value her own individuality over the opinions of other people, and so she didn't mind what the other lad and lasses had to say about her lack of hair glitter and music CDs [img]smile.gif[/img] At the time I thought her family must have been a bunch of losers. Now, in retrospect, I can see how wise they were to not blindly give in to what their society tried to pressure them into thinking was 'normal'. We can proclaim how we think other people should live until the cows come home. But all we really have the power to do is mind our own business, and get along with others in our community as respectfully as our individual beliefs allow [img]smile.gif[/img] We humans can't survive on our own, we need an inter-dependant community to provide us with the necesities of life. But we need not sacrifice the integrity of our own sovereign principles in order to appease an angry or offended mob. So pledge your allegiance to the flag if you like, or don't, it's all perfectly fine so long as you are comfortable with who you are and why you do things the way you do.

And I know someone who's parent also didn't buy him anything either. He was getting ridiculed, harassed and picked on by the other childrens all the way from the first years at school to high school. Now he is doing drug, drinking, and stealing. He got arested a few times already. He now hate his familly and is stoned all the time.

If not being "in" is enough for a kid to be picked on all his life, I'd hate to see what they would do to one who would not seem patriotic.

You are underestimating the effect of peer pressure on a young kid or teen. Those years are the years in which you create your identity vision of yourself. If every one tell you you are shit, you will think you are shit.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Luvian: You are underestimating the effect of peer pressure on a young kid or teen. Those years are the years in which you create your identity vision of yourself. If every one tell you you are shit, you will think you are shit.

Which is precisely why it becomes important for the family to provide both physical and moral support so that everyone won't be saying you are shit. Heh, now, to turn this into a debate would be completely contradicting whatever original point I may have had [img]smile.gif[/img] But I will say that peer pressure is in unavoidable part of living within a community, yet the strength of the support you recieve from family and friends can do alot to offset any negative habits or thought patterns that arise from constant degradation.

Now, if one is so unfortunate as to have no such support then one is placed in an incredibly dificult situation, but to bemoan this would be to bemoan fate itself. Some are blessed with loving support, some are not. Yet the point I am attempting to make is that the need for social acceptance and 'fitting in' cannot be made a legal issue, not because it 'should not' be, but because human desires are an unpredictable variable to which no law can be applied with any real consistency. It is up to the individual, be they child, adolescant or adult, to decide whether to make the necessary compromises to fit in smoothly with the other individuals of their society. To do so is a choice, not a requirement, and no matter the legislation that may be put in place the compromise of individuality can never be forced.

[ 06-12-2003, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[WOLFGIR]

As many other Swedish people have already stated, we don´t have a pledge, we have an anthem that is "stolen" by Neo Nazi's.
Just wanted to say that by not singing the antheme we are agreeing to it being stolen. Stupidity.
I sing it ever national day and try to feel proud of my country, but it is getting more difficult.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Luvian: I wasn't really serious, I knew your intention, but you have to admit that that quote made a tempting target. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I knew you weren't, and yes I did leave that one wide open for target practice...lol. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Link: To both Ronn and Timber (I know you're gonna show up here eventually and start your lawyer stuff ): I seem to remember that there was this father of a child who refused to send his daughter/son/whatever to school because of the pledge of allegiance every day. He didn't want his kid to be 'indoctrinated' or something like that, by being forced to say the pledge of allegiance every day. I can't help to be confused if you guys say it's voluntary and this father prevents his kid from going to school, when the kid can also refuse to say the pledge. I can be mistaken, of course, but I just wish this could be clarified, at least for my own sake.

I vaguely remember the case, and if memory serves, that father did take his daughter out of school, but the point he was trying to make with that action and his law suit against the school wasn't that she shouldn't have to say the pledge, because she didn't have to say it. The father's grievance regarded the use of the word "God" in the pledge.

Some private schools may still say the pledge daily, but as far as I know, public schools do not. At least I know they don't in North Carolina.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: Which is precisely why it becomes important for the family to provide both physical and moral support so that everyone won't be saying you are shit. Heh, now, to turn this into a debate would be completely contradicting whatever original point I may have had [img]smile.gif[/img] But I will say that peer pressure is in unavoidable part of living within a community, yet the strength of the support you recieve from family and friends can do alot to offset any negative habits or thought patterns that arise from constant degradation. Now, if one is so unfortunate as to have no such support then one is placed in an incredibly dificult situation, but to bemoan this would be to bemoan fate itself. Some are blessed with loving support, some are not. Yet the point I am attempting to make is that the need for social acceptance and 'fitting in' cannot be made a legal issue, not because it 'should not' be, but because human desires are an unpredictable variable to which no law can be applied with any real consistency. It is up to the individual, be they child, adolescant or adult, to decide whether to make the necessary compromises to fit in smoothly with the other individuals of their society. To do so is a choice, not a requirement, and no matter the legislation that may be put in place the compromise of individuality can never be forced.

If a kid get beaten and humiliated every days at school, it will take more than a little familial support to make him feel better. "Don't worry, son, all the kids at school might have broken 2 of your ribs, tied you in the school's yard and spit on you, but we love you..."

And that is if the kid even admit he is getting harassed.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Luvian: If a kid get beaten and humiliated every days at school, it will take more than a little familial support to make him feel better. "Don't worry, son, all the kids at school might have broken 2 of your ribs, tied you in the school's yard and spit on you, but we love you..." And that is if the kid even admit he is getting harassed.

So this kid at your school got treated like this and you did nothing to help him? This is what I'm talking about. It's up to individuals to decide how they interact with others. You can't deflect responsibility for how others are treated onto a state-run 'government' enterprise.

"The law failed him!"
"the government should have helped him!"

No, you should have helped him. And if helping him would have brought the wrath down onto you, then so be it. Don't blame personal weakness and indecision on other people's actions. It's all up to you.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Luvian: If a kid get beaten and humiliated every days at school, it will take more than a little familial support to make him feel better. "Don't worry, son, all the kids at school might have broken 2 of your ribs, tied you in the school's yard and spit on you, but we love you..." And that is if the kid even admit he is getting harassed.

So this kid at your school got treated like this and you did nothing to help him? This is what I'm talking about. It's up to individuals to decide how they interact with others. You can't deflect responsibility for how others are treated onto a state-run 'government' enterprise.

"The law failed him!"
"the government should have helped him!"

No, you should have helped him. And if helping him would have brought the wrath down onto you, then so be it. Don't blame personal weakness and indecision on other people's actions. It's all up to you. [/QUOTE]I'm not talking about someone I went to school with. I'm talking about someone younger than me.

[Lovisa]

Originally posted by WOLFGIR: As many other Swedish people have already stated, we don´t have a pledge, we have an anthem that is "stolen" by Neo Nazi's. Just wanted to say that by not singing the antheme we are agreeing to it being stolen. Stupidity. I sing it ever national day and try to feel proud of my country, but it is getting more difficult.

U sing it every national day?
I never sing it exept when we have to in school [img]tongue.gif[/img]
This year the last school day was at the national day 6 june so we sang it then [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]
I guess one of the reasons why I don't sing it is cause I don't know the whole lyric... [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img]