Religion

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Hiram Sedai: I'm fresh from a theological arguement with my mother and step father. I wish I didn't even delve into it, but I was being a bit emotional at the time. Does anyone win an arguement over religion?

Rarely, dear Hiram, rarely. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm just checking in to be sure everyone is discussing it in a civil manner. Sometimes religion and politics threads become flamefests as some people forget that it's JUST a discussion and not the overthrow/conversion of humanity by msg board posts.

Cloudy

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Grungi: unfortunately the fact is the majority of christians do not follow their faith ... (snipped for brevity)

Well, you must know a LOT of Christians...millions, in fact.... to be able to say that with such certainty!

I happen to follow my faith and I know quite a few people, personally, who do as well. Sorry, but this sort of statement is faulty from the start as you have to know what each Christian's faith entails and then know that they don't follow those 'rules' in their daily lives. I don't even know that about half my city, let alone 'the majority of Christians'! [img]smile.gif[/img]

I believe I said the same thing a while ago cloudy. He really must know a LOT of people.

[Grungi]

im talking in thousands (of all sorts of religions, satanists, muslim, sikh, hindu, christian (catholic, church of england amongst other factions) and thats the best i can do im afraid, but yes i do know alot of people.

i was pretty much talking only to the barbarian guy at this point in the thread not to anyone else, im trying not to offend anyone just stating my views and answering his points, theres certainly no flamefest going on here and its nigh on impossible for one to start as a christian cannot begin one can they [img]tongue.gif[/img] and im not about to start one so morally neither side can flame, any argument about religion that is a flamefest means both sides are equally ignorant and arent true to their faith IMO . My philosophy is not to insult someone without good reason, i would never just start on someone else as i think thats wrong and is the reason for so much trouble in the world. So worry not, were all civilised here [img]smile.gif[/img]

my point about following your faith is this, can you honestly turn round and say to me that in your life you have never sinned in any way? if you have sinned you have not followed your faith so proving my argument, if you are pure then all power to you but i find that hard to believe, not one person follows it because to do so would be impossible because were "only human" therefore its impossible to attain, the reason its impossible to attain is because if anyone managed it they and probably everyone else involved would go mad just trying to work it all out. Religion is an unacheivable concept BUT to the individual it provides comfort and thats a good thing, organised religion i have a big problem with, religion for the individual can only be a good thing if you follow it properly.

and how do i know what you follow? i dont but i do know for example the ten commandments, and are you seriously saying you have never fancied someone elses wife or partner ? if so you broke one didnt you? i covetted plenty of women and i fully admit it, if you admit it then you just proved what i been saying [img]tongue.gif[/img] if you dont admit it then i dont believe you so you cant win, see why i can make a sweeping statement like that? because however small it may be if you say "oooo i fancy the arse off that posh spice, would love to have her" a) Mr beckham wouldnt be too favourable and b) your breaking one of the 10 commandments, part of the foundation for the christian religion whether it be catholic, protestant or any other, i dont need to know alot of christians to make that statement as its human nature to fancy gorgeous women and want them, married or not. For me personally its a silly rule as you cant control your thoughts and feelings inside only on the outside.

[Cloudbringer]

my point about following your faith is this, can you honestly turn round and say to me that in your life you have never sinned in any way? if you have sinned you have not followed your faith so proving my argument, if you are pure then all power to you but i find that hard to believe, not one person follows it because to do so would be impossible because were "only human" therefore its impossible to attain, the reason its impossible to attain is because if anyone managed it they and probably everyone else involved would go mad just trying to work it all out. Religion is an unacheivable concept BUT to the individual it provides comfort and thats a good thing, organised religion i have a big problem with, religion for the individual can only be a good thing if you follow it properly.

You obviously don't understand the religion(s) you are talking about. [img]smile.gif[/img] We ALL sin, it's a matter of trying not to and meaning it when you repent of those sins. It's a matter of trying to do what is right, even though we sometimes fail. We hold that only Jesus Christ was/is perfect in that way and we strive to do as he told us we should. So we don't expect to be perfect or sinless. However, in my daily life (as do many people I personally know) I attempt to follow the 10 commandments as best I can. I try to do my level best at coping with life without hurting others. I try to help where I can and offer support when I can. It's a part of being Christian, for me and for many others.

and how do i know what you follow? i dont but i do know for example the ten commandments, and are you seriously saying you have never fancied someone elses wife or partner ? if so you broke one didnt you? i covetted plenty of women and i fully admit it, if you admit it then you just proved what i been saying if you dont admit it then i dont believe you so you cant win, see why i can make a sweeping statement like that? because however small it may be if you say "oooo i fancy the arse off that posh spice, would love to have her" a) Mr beckham wouldnt be too favourable and b) your breaking one of the 10 commandments, part of the foundation for the christian religion whether it be catholic, protestant or any other, i dont need to know alot of christians to make that statement as its human nature to fancy gorgeous women and want them, married or not. For me personally its a silly rule as you cant control your thoughts and feelings inside only on the outside.

This is still from your laboring under the misunderstanding that all Christians are supposed to be perfect and sinless, but here's a shot at replying... LOL nope I never have fancied anyone's wife I like men... Ok, a joke,but my answer is really above. One can do that and know it's wrong. Acting on that 'fancy' would be even worse.

[ 12-02-2002, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

[Grungi]

heh least you didnt say i fancy chickens
(didnt know if you were male or female or hermaphrodite [img]tongue.gif[/img] )

and yeah but my point is that religion itself is progression to perfection btw jesus was not perfect even in the bible, only god is (allegedly) me personally i dont expect anyone to be even close to perfection, but i do expect people who try and convert me constantly ( i dont mean the people on this forum) to actually practice what they preach and not be complete hypocrites such as our regular vicar who came to school assemblies and was later arrested for being a repeated child molester, how dare he come in and lecture us on whats right when he had sex with 6 year old boys that kind of thing annoys me.

so i do understand the religions, everyone sins and you repent and god forgives you ad infinitum, but the end result is getting in to heaven, nirvana, valhalla whichever word applies, so attaining perfection. I didnt even get to people who have affairs etc (vicars and the like) again its human nature, we were designed for polygamy IMO but society doesnt believe in it anymore and i believe its wrong to cheat on someone but if my partner is happy for me to see other people im all for that too and all for them doing the same, so long as everyones happy i see no problem there, but i have no religion to follow and my moral code is my own.

sounds like your a good christian if what you say is true so fair enough but if a homeless person knocked on your door, smelly, whiskey sticking out of his pocket, beard with birds nesting [img]tongue.gif[/img] , etc would you take him in for the night? see the person that would do that in my opinion is a better man than i am, cos no way i would and if a person would do that then i believe they are following their religion (most major religions have something about helping those less fortunate) as best they can and really being selfless but theres not a religious person i know who would do that.

If more people in the world were like mother teresa it would be a truly better place, ie people who really do put others totally before themselves, not do it because they look better, not do it for social standing (as im sure you'll agree a huge amount of so called religious types only help people because it makes them look good to others, my mother does that i never got the feeling she honestly did it to help other people) i admire mother teresa massively for what she did, she dedicated her life to helping others and sadly got less respect than goddamn princess diana (who did ■■■■ all IMO and was one of those selfserving people who cared more about image) what i really want is everyone who claims to have a faith to really put themselves out for others, because if they did you wouldnt have homeless people or poor people in either england or america thats for certain, utopian ideal i know but thats what i expect from religions based on giving and selflessness.

i dont expect all christians to be perfect as i said earlier thats impossible as were all only human, and perfection is an ideal that varies from person to person anyway, but i do expect christians/religious types to be far more giving and selfless than they are currently, me personally im selfserving unashamedly as the number 1 person in my life is me, but saying that i help my friends out as much as i possibly can but not if it really puts me out to do so, im quite happy with the way i am and everyone who knows me gets on with me and knows they can rely on me so i feel im doing what i can, if i did follow a religion IMO id be pretty shitty and as i know i am not pretty shitty i look at people who do follow religions and compare myself and think, im a better person than them(whether it be through them taking drugs or the way they treat people etc) not in an arrogant manner but because i think the way they treat other people is far worse than the way i do it, so i make a judgement based on that, they have religion yet are worse people than myself, in my life (and i can only speak from my experiences) the people who have been the nicest and truly selfless people have not had any religion or even a belief in god or a higher being, and the people who have been the worst have been religious so you can see why i believe organised religion is a bad thing (individual religion is a good thing because you set your own realistic standards and if your hypocritical over those then theres somethign wrong [img]tongue.gif[/img] )

im not making sweeping statements btw just stating my beliefs and every day al queda makes another attack or bush threatens to bomb iraq off the face of the earth i feel im justified (both sides are strongly religious but you wouldnt think it) anyhows thats another issue [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Cloudbringer]

I'm at work so I can't really answer thatLONG post in any comprehensive manner. I will let others do a better job of it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Suffice it to say, I'm not here to 'convert' anyone. In the two years I've been around, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who could claim otherwise. If you've had bad experiences, I can understand your point of view, but please note, it's not the norm for a large number of people.

[Callum Kerr]

Cloudy... interestingly enough, Jesus was NOT perfect... he did NOT wnat to do all these good things... or so my mummy tells me

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Callum Kerr: Cloudy... interestingly enough, Jesus was NOT perfect... he did NOT wnat to do all these good things... or so my mummy tells me

Sorry, but I don't have time to debate anything this weighty today,work and all...sigh... but you're wrong by all that I know and believe...according to my faith, Jesus is the son of God and part of the Trinity we know as God, therefore, he is perfect. Now, I can only speak for Christians and those who believe in the Trinity, of course.

Gotta run guys! Maybe someone else can pick this up and run with it. Just wait til Cerek gets back... [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img]

[Timber Loftis]

Without reading too much of this thread, I'll simply note that it's like Deja Vu all over again. (Credit where it's due to Yogi Beara)