Don't ask Don't tell - Page 6

Rokenn · 11-19-2002, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cloudbringer:
Would you feel as comfortable showering with your workout partner if it was a woman? I think that's what was being said- that it's the 'sexual' tension or possibilities thereof that are the reason for separate accomodations.[/QB]

What sexual tension? Any you feel is most likely in your own mind. Ask just about any gay man about this and they will laugh. As they are generaly not interested in straight guys, other then to mess with thier heads.

As for showering with my female workout partner, well I'm all for that! Know any good local gyms where we could? lol [img]tongue.gif[/img]

11-19-2002, 11:34 AM

Just on a battlefield level here, you really do not want there to be romantic entaglements interfering with squad discipline, which you will not have if all the men are straight, if some of them are gay, there is the possibility that emotions can work to the detriment of the squad.

Not saying that it would always happen, just that it could happen. One thing you DO NOT want to have to worry about under fire is wether your squad mates are having a lovers spat. And pooh pooh that as much as you want but lovers quarels have killed nearly as many people as guns.

Edit: this is also a problem with women on the battlefield as well. There is a well documented problem with the males in a mixed sex squad trying to protect/help the females along which detracts from the over all efficiency of the unit. It is not the fault of the females per se' but were they not present, the males would be more apt to pay attention to their own job.

[ 11-19-2002, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Sir Taliesin · 11-19-2002, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rokenn:

quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:

Two, let me jump beyond the "should it be allowed" discussion of OPEN gays in the military (I'll note my earlier post explains why I think we should not). (Also note that in-closet gays are allowed.) Assuming open gays are allowed, tell me how to make it practical. Housing and showers for instance - which are communal. Now, must I really shower with someone who lets me know he's gay? Isn't that akin to making me shower with a woman or vice versa - as the "uncomfortableness" of sharing a shower is not based on gender, but on unwanted sexual desires or overtures. If you allow open gays, how do you NOT force yourself into a separate housing situation? Elsewise, why not treat all men & women that same: communal bunks and showers for all (like in Starship Troopers).

Assuming it's philosophically mandated, I still think it is simply to impractical.

Why impractical? My workout partner is gay and we shower together at the gym 2-4 times a week. Big whoop. Are you afraid they are going to go around raping all the hetro guys in the shower or what? And again, why the need for seperate housing? I feel your just creating issues were none really exist.[/QUOTE]I too have had a gay workout partner and it didn't bother me either, but if most others aren't comfortable with it, then why would I wish to force it on them? That's what your saying do. Personally, I think when it comes right down to it, most males would be more than slightly embarassed to shower in front of a female who isn't their significant other. And I am positive that most females wouldn't like it either! What's the difference between a openly gay man or woman and the opposite sex?

[ 11-19-2002, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: Sir Taliesin ]

Timber Loftis · 11-19-2002, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin:

quote:
Originally posted by Rokenn:

quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:

Two, let me jump beyond the "should it be allowed" discussion of OPEN gays in the military (I'll note my earlier post explains why I think we should not). (Also note that in-closet gays are allowed.) Assuming open gays are allowed, tell me how to make it practical. Housing and showers for instance - which are communal. Now, must I really shower with someone who lets me know he's gay? Isn't that akin to making me shower with a woman or vice versa - as the "uncomfortableness" of sharing a shower is not based on gender, but on unwanted sexual desires or overtures. If you allow open gays, how do you NOT force yourself into a separate housing situation? Elsewise, why not treat all men & women that same: communal bunks and showers for all (like in Starship Troopers).

Assuming it's philosophically mandated, I still think it is simply to impractical.

Why impractical? My workout partner is gay and we shower together at the gym 2-4 times a week. Big whoop. Are you afraid they are going to go around raping all the hetro guys in the shower or what? And again, why the need for seperate housing? I feel your just creating issues were none really exist.[/QUOTE]I too have had a gay workout partner and it didn't bother me either, but if most others aren't comfortable with it, then why would I wish to force it on them? That's what your saying do. Personally, I think when it comes right down to it, most males would be more than slightly embarassed to shower in front of a female who isn't their significant other. And I am positive that most females wouldn't like it either! What's the difference between a openly gay man or woman and the opposite sex?[/QUOTE]Amen, Sir T. If you're going to support their right to openly admire those of the same sex, then you have placed them in exactly the same position as a member of the opposite sex vis-a-vis the object of the affection. Your workout partner might be fine, but would it be a rule for all gay men. I have gay friends I feel really comfortable with (though not quite *that* comfortable, but maybe I'm just a bit more shy than you), but nevertheless you're telling me I have to confront the possibility of showering with ones who will be like those that have *way-too-forcefully* tried to pick me up at bars. It's not fun being followed into a bathroom and groped - not when it's by someone you don't want groping you anyway.

Look either (1) the sexual tensions between me and a gay man are equal to those between me and a woman, wherein you have no right to put us in a communal shower situation; or (2) the tensions are different, and your argument for equality fails. Either way, I win.

Just how I like it.

Rokenn · 11-19-2002, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
Amen, Sir T. If you're going to support their right to openly admire those of the same sex, then you have placed them in exactly the same position as a member of the opposite sex vis-a-vis the object of the affection. Your workout partner might be fine, but would it be a rule for all gay men. I have gay friends I feel really comfortable with (though not quite *that* comfortable, but maybe I'm just a bit more shy than you), but nevertheless you're telling me I have to confront the possibility of showering with ones who will be like those that have *way-too-forcefully* tried to pick me up at bars. It's not fun being followed into a bathroom and groped - not when it's by someone you don't want groping you anyway.

Look either (1) the sexual tensions between me and a gay man are equal to those between me and a woman, wherein you have no right to put us in a communal shower situation; or (2) the tensions are different, and your argument for equality fails. Either way, I win.

Just how I like it.

Unwanted sexual contact is wrong, regardless of the sex of those involved. I believe the legal term for unwanted groping is sexual assualt. If someone is trying to force themselves on you there are already laws that deal with that.

Timber Loftis · 11-19-2002, 03:56 PM

An assault is an unwanted *touching.* There is no tort for leering. And, if unwanted sexual attention is wrong, by your own admission, then why throw two people who *might* desire one another into a communal shower situation? Sorry, you just can't get around this argument.

11-19-2002, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
Either way, I win. Just how I like it.

You Sir are a glory hog!! Of course who would hire a Lawyer who did not like to win?

But I agree with you [img]smile.gif[/img]

Rokenn · 11-19-2002, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
An assault is an unwanted *touching.* There is no tort for leering. And, if unwanted sexual attention is wrong, by your own admission, then why throw two people who *might* desire one another into a communal shower situation? Sorry, you just can't get around this argument.

I didn't mention anything about leering. Personally if someone wants to leer at me I could care less. And again I said unwanted sexual contact. Do you truly think that people have so little self control that they are going to try jumping people in a public shower? If the whole shower thing is such a huge sticky point then they could just put up stalls.

One last thing on the leering, if this is in a workplace situation(as it would in the military) wouldn't that fall under sexual harrassment?

ps- please do not take any of this personally. I am not attacking you or your sexuality.

Timber Loftis · 11-19-2002, 04:32 PM

I'm not taking anything personally - Scout's honor (pun intended).

In a workplace situation, you cannot be sexually harrassed (legally) unless you feel compelled to submit - which almost always requires that the person be your superior (in rank for the military).

Again, I go back to asking why someone has to parade their sexuality in public. If you have a foot fetish - fine. But, don't make me listen to stories about it. I don't want to know how fine that guy who walked by is, whose d**k is biggest, nor what a marine looks like in Daisy Dukes and rainbow stripes. At work, that is - you're free to ramble as you like when we go out to a bar together. Oh - and if you need to have a parade to celebrate your sexuality, you've gone as far afield as the KKK - albeit in the other direction. Some things are simply *private.* If we keep making people's private lives public, we'll have no moral high ground once big brother wants to legislate our bedroom activities.

Yes, I am for employment benefits for gay folks, as well as the right to "marry" or cojoin in some legal way to protect each other's interests. Yes, I have many gay friends and family members who I dearly love. Yes, I am open regarding sexuality and honestly like to visit gay bars and take in a good drag show almost as much as I like a good strip bar (well, maybe half as much). But, as to whether any of these things have any place in one's professional career - I vehemently say NO WAY.

And, in the military, different rules apply. Why? We don't have a need to know.

[ 11-19-2002, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

11-19-2002, 04:47 PM

T.L. You make great points! I REALLY want to know why Gays in my company NEED a special celebration "Coming Out" day in the work place DURING work hours? Why should any company have to subsidize someone announcing their sexual preference? And why does everyone have to know? Why do I have to know that Jared is gay? (well ok, I was already pretty sure...) Should I not then have a day for me to proclaim

I Like to Bang Chicks!

or some other equally obnoxious hetero slogan?

11-19-2002, 03:56 PM	#56
Timber Loftis 40th Level Warrior Join Date: July 11, 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 11,916	An assault is an unwanted touching. There is no tort for leering. And, if unwanted sexual attention is wrong, by your own admission, then why throw two people who might desire one another into a communal shower situation? Sorry, you just can't get around this argument. __________________

11-19-2002, 04:32 PM	#59
Timber Loftis 40th Level Warrior Join Date: July 11, 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 11,916	I'm not taking anything personally - Scout's honor (pun intended). In a workplace situation, you cannot be sexually harrassed (legally) unless you feel compelled to submit - which almost always requires that the person be your superior (in rank for the military). Again, I go back to asking why someone has to parade their sexuality in public. If you have a foot fetish - fine. But, don't make me listen to stories about it. I don't want to know how fine that guy who walked by is, whose d*k is biggest, nor what a marine looks like in Daisy Dukes and rainbow stripes. At work, that is - you're free to ramble as you like when we go out to a bar together. Oh - and if you need to have a parade to celebrate your sexuality, you've gone as far afield as the KKK - albeit in the other direction. Some things are simply private.* If we keep making people's private lives public, we'll have no moral high ground once big brother wants to legislate our bedroom activities. Yes, I am for employment benefits for gay folks, as well as the right to "marry" or cojoin in some legal way to protect each other's interests. Yes, I have many gay friends and family members who I dearly love. Yes, I am open regarding sexuality and honestly like to visit gay bars and take in a good drag show almost as much as I like a good strip bar (well, maybe half as much). But, as to whether any of these things have any place in one's professional career - I vehemently say NO WAY. And, in the military, different rules apply. Why? We don't have a need to know. [ 11-19-2002, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ] __________________

11-19-2002, 04:47 PM	#60
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	T.L. You make great points! I REALLY want to know why Gays in my company NEED a special celebration "Coming Out" day in the work place DURING work hours? Why should any company have to subsidize someone announcing their sexual preference? And why does everyone have to know? Why do I have to know that Jared is gay? (well ok, I was already pretty sure...) Should I not then have a day for me to proclaim I Like to Bang Chicks! or some other equally obnoxious hetero slogan?

11-19-2002, 11:34 AM	#52
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	Just on a battlefield level here, you really do not want there to be romantic entaglements interfering with squad discipline, which you will not have if all the men are straight, if some of them are gay, there is the possibility that emotions can work to the detriment of the squad. Not saying that it would always happen, just that it could happen. One thing you DO NOT want to have to worry about under fire is wether your squad mates are having a lovers spat. And pooh pooh that as much as you want but lovers quarels have killed nearly as many people as guns. Edit: this is also a problem with women on the battlefield as well. There is a well documented problem with the males in a mixed sex squad trying to protect/help the females along which detracts from the over all efficiency of the unit. It is not the fault of the females per se' but were they not present, the males would be more apt to pay attention to their own job. [ 11-19-2002, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

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