Wolves as Endangered Species

Originally posted by Moni: Where did you get the info on wolves stealing small Siberian children? Beavers being 10 ft long? I'd like to read up on those uh, facts?

The Beaver I saw a photo in a museum in Minnessotta with a man standing next to the pelt of said beaver taken in the late 1800's. I also saw beaver pelts in a museum in PA that were 7 feet long.

The Siberian Wolf attacks I read about a few years ago, maybe in Omni Magazine, or possibly Popular Science or Field and Stream......

Try running a google search on "Biggest Beaver" and in response to a different post of yours....

How big is your beaver? What do you feed it? [img]graemlins/evillaughter1.gif[/img]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Moni: Where did you get the info on wolves stealing small Siberian children? Beavers being 10 ft long? I'd like to read up on those uh, facts?

The Beaver I saw a photo in a museum in Minnessotta with a man standing next to the pelt of said beaver taken in the late 1800's. I also saw beaver pelts in a museum in PA that were 7 feet long.

The Siberian Wolf attacks I read about a few years ago, maybe in Omni Magazine, or possibly Popular Science or Field and Stream......

Try running a google search on "Biggest Beaver" and in response to a different post of yours....

How big is your beaver? What do you feed it? [img]graemlins/evillaughter1.gif[/img]
[/QUOTE]I'll be in the library doing research all day tomorrow...I'll save it for then I think...thanks.

No comment on your last questions, that was just beyond rude, even if I did set myself up.

[pritchke]

I don't know about bever's being 10 feet long. 7 feet from head to tail maybe but only because the tail is over half the length.

Although here is a true story. My cousin-in-law was driving through a backroad in the woods so he sees this beaver dragging a log across the road and he parks on the log to tickoff the beaver. The bever starts chatting away, then attacks the truck punching a hole in his front tire.

Personally I think he got what he deserved because beavers do not normally attack trucks or people either. [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img]

[ 10-18-2002, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

Originally posted by Moni: No comment on your last questions, that was just beyond rude, even if I did set myself up.

I have no idea what you are talking about. [img]smile.gif[/img] Cheers!

Oh I did a quick google search on wolf attacks too...quite a few popped up.

Originally posted by MagiK: Oh I did a quick google search on wolf attacks too...quite a few popped up.

Yeah, a lot of sites come up for most any subject but how many of them are credible?
Google Searches are overextended and overexaggerated searches too...you get results for things that don't even pertain to the subject.
One reason I don't use it for subjects I am looking for facts on when researching on the internet.

[ 10-18-2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Moni ]

[pritchke]

Actually when I did the search I found alot of interesting information both pro, and con.

It is a fact that more wolf attacks occur in Asia and Europe than N. American. I think that is obvious giving the population of these places in comparision in land mass.

In the Articles I read on attackes in NA(Canada and US) were rare often 40 to 50 years apart with a few notable exceptions like British Columbia. In some of those attacks the wolf attacked only after have a stone tossed at it or being yelled at. After reading all these articles I feel we have less to fear from the wolves, and man is his own worst enemy.

A good book based on a true story is "Never Cry Wolf" - Farlay Mowet. It is not a long read about 250 pgs or so and interesting. It will hopefully dispell some of the myths about that animal that some of us are so parinoid of, the wolf.

[ 10-18-2002, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

Originally posted by pritchke: Actually when I did the search I found alot of interesting information both pro, and con.

Yeah I went ahead and looked at the Google search results myself but did notice a lot of repetition in the links...something that really bothers me since I don't always have time to weed out the credible sites from those that are not.

10+ pages with the first three repeating numerous sites is not a good way to send someone off on a hunt for factual information imo.

I did notice the words "attacks on humans are rare" often and looked at some of the anti-wolf sites to read up on the ranchers woes.
A number of those sites attributed attacks to wolves and coyotes that were uncharacteristic of the ways that the animals (as a pack) will kill and feed. Lone wolves maybe but then again, you have to consider why a pack would not accept that particular wolf. I would associate it with the same way normal functioning humans do not accept psychopaths but then I cannot say that I know how wolves think either. I just know from what I have seen and learned that they are far more harmless than the reputation man has pinned on them.

Coyotes are the least likely animal to attack people...I have spent many nights (over nearly two decades) out in the open desert with their "red" eyes in the background just watching as they circled wide around me to get to another part of the desert and have even heard a kill and feed (rabbit judging by the scream) close enough to hear the slurping noises that those feeding made and the whimpers of the pack members who were made to wait...while I sat out in the open nearby with a Phillie cheesesteak sandwich.

Well, man has his day coming and his own ignorance and greed is the fuel it will burn on. That's going to be one helluva "fire".

[ 10-18-2002, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: Moni ]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by MagiK: Names and addresses please Neb [img]smile.gif[/img] There have been some people who have lived in the woods and studied the wolves but not lived WITH the wolves. When I lived in Minnessotta I had the chance to talk to a guy who raises Hybrid puppies that are part wolf. He had to quit raising wolves due to his inability to breed the vicious streak out of them. He loved them dearly, and still does but he said he would never trust his daughter around them. I also know of some scientists who swim with great whites too..doesnt mean they are pussycats.

MagiK, I remember reading an article in National Geo years ago, about some researchers that studied artic wolves. The researchers lived with, or rather lived next to the alpha male and alpha female of a pack. The pack had split up during the summer to for the alpha female to have her puppies. They were at a caribou calving area, so the wolves had plenty of food. The resarchers spent one night and 2 gal. of hot tea "marking" their territory, a 30yd radius around their tents, it took the alpha male 10 minutes to "mark" the other side of the researchers "markings".

I could dig out the Nat. Geo. if you want but I have 25 years of Nat.Geo. to look through

[ 10-18-2002, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

I just watched a program last night about wolf researchers here in the U.S. living in a tent in the middle of "wolf territory" in order to study and photograph them. They raised the initial pack from babies with as little human contact as was necessary (in order not to tame them and in order to allow them to becomfortable with the presence of man) and set them free at a young age.

Later, they introduced three new cubs into the pack and throughout the whole three years, never once did they need to fear being attacked.
This was a government funded research project and when the funds ran out, they all had to get off the land.
The wolves were relocated to an Indian reservation by a tribe who considers wolves to be brethren but what became of them after their relocation was not covered in the program. (Relocation of territorial animals has been proven to be detrimental to a pack of wolves...I saw some other program on that a couple of years ago and the fictional book "Hungry for Home" by 'Asta Bowen eerily mirrors the story of the real wolves that were relocated).

The program I saw last night was probably on one of the Discovery channels and I cannot recall the name of the program but it was interesting nonetheless.
If I see it listed again, and I probably will since those channels replay the same programs over and over again and back to back for days, I'll supply you with the title of the program and precisely what channel it airs on.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

I believe I saw that same program not long ago myself, Moni. I agree that it was very interesting and that wolves are fascinating creatures. Then again, I consider MOST animals to be fascinating. I also agree that - MOST of the time - wolves will not attack unless "provoked". But they are wild animals, and I consider ALL wild animals to be dangerous under the right circumstances.

To say that wolves (or any other creature for that matter) would NEVER attack humans unless they were starved or threatened is just naive' in my opinon.

Nachtrafe gave an account of just such an "unprovoked" attack, only to have his story criticized by a member who lives on another continent....yet claims to have more knowledge of what prompted the attack than the person who went through it.

And to suggest that it is the farmer's fault that the wolves are attacking his animals and that he should just stand idly by as they kill the animals he depends upon for his livelihood is simply unbelievable. First off, it is very rare for ANY domesticated herd to have any "weak or old" members. They get sent to the slaughterhouse long before that happens. So the wolves are NOT doing the farmers any favors. Also, I haven't seen anybody advocate shooting a wolf for anything other than it being a threat to thier lives or livelihood, yet the "opposition" keeps "warning of the dangers of wiping out a species". Nobody here has said they hunt wolves just for sport.

Personally, I am not a hunter (even though I live in the South......shhhhhh, don't tell anybody or they may kick me out). I would NEVER kill an animal for sport. I wouldn't even hunt to put food on the table unless it were absolutely necessary (which it is NOT in today's society). I have 3 uncles who were all avid hunters, but they also ate what they killed. I see nothing wrong with that...it just doesn't appeal to me.

HOWEVER.....IF I were a farmer or rancher and a wolf (or wolves) were attacking my livestock, you better believe the only "relocation" I would do is putting them into the ground. I agree that MOST attacks on livestock are probably made by coyotes, rather than wolves. But whichever animal was attacking my herd, they're gonna get shot at.

Are wolves truly "noble"? I don't think so. Nobility is a human trait, not a canine one. Their is a strict heirarchy in the wolfpack. The alpha male and alpha female rule the pack. Others are subservient, and the weakest are little more than slaves. They are bitten, cut, and attacked by every other member for the least little "offense". They are given nothing but the leftover scraps from the kill, which is one reason they cannot grow stronger and improve their station in the pack.

Are wolves cruel, then? I don't think that's the case either. All the wolves accept the conditions of pack life. They are wolves and that's just the way things are for them.

Are wolves beautiful creatures? Without a doubt....they are gorgeous. And it is their beautifully powerful features that cause us to label them as "noble".

I also think Grizzly and Kodiak bears are beautiful, as well as tigers, cougars, and most other large cats. But the bottom line is that ALL these animals can be VERY dangerous....and I simply don't feel ANY animal deserves to live MORE than I do. So, if they threaten me or mine, I will defend myself.

THAT is "nature's way".