Can we prove Santa Claus does NOT exist?

[Spelca]

Originally posted by Melusine: But Saint Nicolas is not the direct equivalent of Santa Claus. I made a post on "Sinterklaas", Saint Nicolas' Day, last year in December, I don't know if you saw it. Sinterklaas is traditionally celebrated on the 5th of December in The Netherlands and some other parts of Europe, and it is strictly separated from Christmas or "the Christmas Man" as we call Santa. "Sint" is dressed as a bishop, with tabard, mitre and staff, and he is MUCH closer to Saint Nicolas than Santa is. Still, it is believed that many aspects of Sinterklaas are in fact derived from paganism. He rides the roofs on a white horse, accompanied by his black helpers, the Zwarte Pieten (Black Petes). In this he is certainly connected to Wotan, with his two black ravens, who used to ride the night sky as well, and who left gifts or did mischief in every house he passed. There are several other aspects of Sinterklaas that are pagan in origin, and yet he is MUCH closer to the original saint than Santa is. Santa doesn't even look saintly anymore, when Sinterklaas has a traditional Catholic apparel. Santa's name is slurred almost beyond recognition. Sinterklaas is almost literally "Saint Nicolas" in Dutch: Sint is the Dutch word for saint and Klaas the Dutch shortened version of Nicolas. So I wouldn't be surprised if Santa derives many elements from paganism as well. In any case it is known that most modern common Christmas practises (the Christmas tree, the Yule-log, the mistletoe, certain dishes, the giving of gifts, the 'feast of light' idea, the date on which we celebrate it) are pagan in origin. It's remarkable how well it adapts to Christianity (and vice versa, of course!): Light is a Christian symbol as well, the giving of gifts a symbol of unequivocal generosity...[/QB]

Yep, same in Slovenia. We celebrate Saint Nicholas day on the 5th December. We get presents then. Yay! Or at least children do, because Saint Nicholas is supposed to be the protector of children. And a bunch of other things like fishermen, etc. - at least in Ljubljana. [img]smile.gif[/img] Oh, we call him 'Miklavz' in Slovene, which sounds a lot like Nicholas, and he is dressed like Melusine described him [img]smile.gif[/img]

I also agree that Santa doesn't look 'saintly' anymore. My grandma told me that when they were children there was no Santa. They believed 'baby Jesus' brought them gifts, and not some guy with a beard. So maybe they took Santa Clause from Saint Nicholas and changed him a bit?

[Epona]

Spelca, the 'look' that modern Santa Claus has (big fellow with beard & jolly red & white suit) actually comes from an early 20th Century Coca Cola advertising campaign (hence red and white). Before that, the image as we know it now did not exist - I believe he was more often depicted wearing green.

Sad but true.

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Spelca: Or at least children do, because Saint Nicholas is supposed to be the protector of children. And a bunch of other things like fishermen, etc. - at least in Ljubljana.

Yep - Nicolas is the patron saint of children, fishermen, sailors and travellers and the poor. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Edit: wow Epona, that's truly sad indeed!
I wonder where the green comes from though, then...? Because St. Nicolas DOES wear red... so there may be another source of the figure of Santa

[ 06-19-2002, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

[Epona]

I found this interesting article on the net about the origins of Santa:

From the Germanic traditions we merge OÞin and Thor:

Every Yule, the good god Thor would visit every home with an altar to him (i.e., every home with a fireplace!) and bring gifts to children, who would put out their sabots (wooden shoes) the night before. Good children would receive gifts of fruit, candy and pieces of coal to burn in the fireplace.

-Rev. Rel Davis

In Northern Germany, Santa Claus is said to ride a white horse, much like OÞin did, though Santa's horse has the usual number of legs.

From the Christian traditions we get St. Nicholas, one of the saints on whom we have no hard evidence whether he really lived or not.

Nicholas was supposedly born in the city of Parara, to wealthy parents who died when he was a child. On reaching adulthood, he became a priest and gave all his possessions to the poor, especially to orphans. He made a pilgrimage to the Holy Land. On a pilgrimage to the Holy Land he calmed a storm at sea with his prayers, making him the patron saint of sailors. When he returned he was elected Bishop of Myra. He gave money anonymously for spinsters' dowries. During the Diocletian persecutions he was imprisoned but freed under the Emperor Constantine. His Feast Day is December 5th.

He was also said to bring back the dead from a magic cauldron (an ancient Celtic concept), that he miraculously multiplied a shipment of grain so it could feed his entire diocese for two years, with enough left over for a new crop of grain and that when he died, his bones exuded a huge quantity of holy oil capable of curing any known disease.

Gift giving was also a major part of the Saturnalia, the pagan festival to the sun god celebrated on 25th December.

Sorry Yorick, I realise this ain't what you wanted a discussion about - it's just so interesting though! My apologies.

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Epona: Sorry Yorick, I realise this ain't what you wanted a discussion about - it's just so interesting though! My apologies.

I'm sure Yorick won't mind - the title of his thread is about Santa Claus, after all.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Epona: Sorry Yorick, I realise this ain't what you wanted a discussion about - it's just so interesting though! My apologies.

Such is human conversation. Besides, as Mario said, it's the thread title. [img]smile.gif[/img]

You've posted some interesting points.

I should highlight at this stage, that protestants don't have saints. We believe all believers are "saints". That all are equal under God, and that deifying another human (even Mary) is not kosher.

Secondly, for us Christmas is the celebration of Christs birth, but even then for a commited Christian, Easter is going to have more significance. It's easy to keep Jesus as a palatable little cute baby. Harder to watch nails driven into his wrists and seeing such a gracious healing man flogged in our place.

Thus Santa can be a bit of a distraction to the true meaning of christmas in some ways. Especially if he dominates a christian families consciousness at the expense of Christ. So can the increasing commercialisation of a time to share and give.

But oh well. Thanks for your contributions Epona. I for one appreciated them. [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

Has anyone heard the Rolf Harris take on Christmas, where Santa turns up to 'Straya with six white "boomers" (large kangaroos) instead of reindeer?

Also, why is it that in the Aussie summer, we see nuts outside in snowweather clothing, stick on beards and cushions strolling about with a bell, obviously sweating like a shower.

Could we not, in 200 years, have adapted a Santa in boardshorts? Riding on a magical surfboard driven by rednosed (sunburnt) dolphins?

Instead of coming through the chimney, he comes in through the airconditioner shaft.

Sound good?

Anyone?

nah _ i've seen the film [img]tongue.gif[/img] - He teleports down

sorry, folks but Santa retired. All pressies are deliveredd by an armoured FF .

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Hmmm, well actually technically Saint Nicholas isn't that far separated from Santa Claus.. because Santa Claus is the latin name fro him, but the rest is right about how the actual Saint Noicholas is very different from the picture people have today.
Also, I had heard that thing about the coca-cola ad before too Epona, but actually turns out it's most likely a popular myth, I found out on Snopes.com

[Epona]

Talthy, oh bugger, don't tell me that's a myth! Please no, I liked that factoid [img]graemlins/crying.gif[/img]

Yorick, thanks for your comments mate [img]smile.gif[/img] I do get a bit off topic sometimes, I see one line in a post that interests me and that's where I go! Of course, Saints are more a Catholic thing are they not? I don't pretend to know much about modern Christianity [img]smile.gif[/img]

One thing that does interest me though is the Roman period ("blah blah blah, here goes Epona" I hear everyone think!) I've not studied the beginnings of Christianity as such, but as an archaeologist/historian specialising in the Roman period I do see parallels between Christian/Roman/Celtic festivals and between Christianity and Mithraeism, an Eastern cult, which became popular in the period just before Christianity. Some people try to put this down to the old 'Christianity hijacked Paganism to convert everyone' theory, but I believe, looking at the way Romans merged their culture with other cultures (looking here at Roman Britannia, Gaul, N Africa, Middle East, where many aspects of Roman and Native cultures combined to form 'Roman Culture' in those provinces during the period of Roman rule) that it is a similar thing in religion. It came naturally to the Romans to adapt other ideas and absorb other cultures, why should Christianity as spread by the Romans be any different? Hence incorporation of existing festivals (Saturnalia, Ostara etc) and rituals (sharing of bread and wine to represent the body and blood of the bull slain by Mithras - Mithraeism having predated the writing of the Gospels - also early basilica churches were very similar in construction to Mitraeia) is simply the 'Roman way of doing things'. Sorry Yorick, I got off onto another subject that interests me there! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-19-2002, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Epona ]