US taught a lesson....will it ever learn from it?

[250]

Originally posted by Ace Flashheart: You’re right of course 250... in a way we have been backed into a corner... I just wish America would drop the pretence of acting as a force of righteousness of the world; they are not guiltless in this matter. An observant spectator might comment that America's support of Israel in their was vs. Pakistan, a war in which America has helped support one side with no more of a claim to the other over the territory disputed, because of the current governments fear of losing the substantial no. of Jewish votes in the US. This same devaluation of human life being little better than what has occurred at the WTC, however I doubt that we will be seeing the 'Pakistan telethon' or commutative signature pictures any time soon.

**takes out his gun**
**aim**

you have been spamming "I am an idiot" in your post all over

well, yes you are. surprise!?

[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 10-09-2001).]

[Prime2U]

Originally posted by AboveTheRimYo: Though i cant say i agree with people using an RPG board to spout off about terrorism, ive finally buckled & decided to have my 2 cents worth as well, so here it is: Its a fact of life, that if your a bully at school, and you go around bossing people, telling them how to live, and beating up those who disagree with you (your just protecting your 'freedom' to be obnoxious to others right?) then sooner or later some of the kids you've picked on are going to join together & have a go at you, even if its only to prove they dont like being pushed around. Of course, if your by far the biggest, toughest kid in the school then everything that you do is 'right' and 'good' and 'the only way' since no-one can beat the crap out of you (usually all that kind of kid understands) to prove otherwise. an IMPORTANT thing to realise is that sooner or later a new kid will come along who's tougher, and will knock you off the top of the hill. Watchout when that happens, because everyone who you've bullied while you were no.1 is going to take advantage & get theirs back on you, and some people have very long memories. Even the "Holy" Roman Empire crumbled into nothing after 1000 years of glory. No 'bully' ever stays at the top forever, no matter how much self-reighous rubbish he spouts to his followers in trying to keep his gang together. Most bullies (in my experience) never learn this lesson, and continue to victimise, lecture, or provoke whomever they please right up until they are brought back to earth with a broken nose. Then all of a sudden they find themselves being unpopular, and wonder why are other people cheering my suffering? Ive never, ever, hurt anyone else before.........have I? THANKFULLY the world is too big a playground for just one bully (im sure lots of dictators in third world countries would love the job though). On a different topic, ive noticed that a recent terrorist attack on some American buildings has been blamed (not PROVEN yet, just blamed) on a group of Muslims from Afghanistan. Ive also noticed that most Muslims hate the idea of Jews currently occupying Jerusalem, and its also a fact that America gives Israel 100 BILLION dollars a year in 'foreign aid' (you have to love terms like that one) as well as supplying the Jews with the vast majority of their weapons, despite publically remaining "neutral" on the issue. As with most dilemmas, the easiest solution may be to find a scapegoat as quick as possible (who should be publically burned at the stake just like in the good ol' middle ages) , completely ignore all of the issues and moral ramifications involved, and hope that life will go on as usual, because after all- the 'good guys' got their man, or a least someone to blame for everything. Often those who refuse to look inside themselves would prefer to live in fear of what they might find, rather than face the struggle of conquering their own inadequecies.

I think you either don't really understand what a bully is, or else you have no idea of the history of American involvement in foreign affairs. If america wanted to be a bully there would be a lot more soil with the american flag planted in it. What they are is the biggest, toughest kid on the block who protects the little kids from the neighborhood bullies. Any actions we take against foreign contries or in support of foreign countries are never designed to take them over but to protect them from totalitarian regimes. I'll grant that often our reasons for helping are not purely from the goodness of our hearts, but we've never attacked a country for our own personal gain, which is what a bully would do. You want a bully, say hello to Saddam. What pisses them off is that because of us looking over their shoulder they can't unleash the violence, and often genocide, that they would like on their neighboring countries. They don't feel we have any business sticking our nose into their beat down, slaughtering, impoverishing business. But goin back to you bully idea, if you were walking down the street and saw a bully absolutely beating someone to death, and you knew you had the power to stop it, would you walk on by? Could your concience handle that? The US would stop it with as much force as was necessary, clean the beaten kid up, bandage him, take him home and feed him, and be willing to let things end there, as long as the bully quit. If the bully kept up his attacks, the US would take him out, then feed, clothe and help out his family. Is this evil? Truly? Or is this just annoying to evil people because it curbs their plans?

[Liliara]

Originally posted by Prime2U: I think you either don't really understand what a bully is, or else you have no idea of the history of American involvement in foreign affairs. If america wanted to be a bully there would be a lot more soil with the american flag planted in it. What they are is the biggest, toughest kid on the block who protects the little kids from the neighborhood bullies. Any actions we take against foreign contries or in support of foreign countries are never designed to take them over but to protect them from totalitarian regimes. I'll grant that often our reasons for helping are not purely from the goodness of our hearts, but we've never attacked a country for our own personal gain, which is what a bully would do. You want a bully, say hello to Saddam. What pisses them off is that because of us looking over their shoulder they can't unleash the violence, and often genocide, that they would like on their neighboring countries. They don't feel we have any business sticking our nose into their beat down, slaughtering, impoverishing business. But goin back to you bully idea, if you were walking down the street and saw a bully absolutely beating someone to death, and you knew you had the power to stop it, would you walk on by? Could your concience handle that? The US would stop it with as much force as was necessary, clean the beaten kid up, bandage him, take him home and feed him, and be willing to let things end there, as long as the bully quit. If the bully kept up his attacks, the US would take him out, then feed, clothe and help out his family. Is this evil? Truly? Or is this just annoying to evil people because it curbs their plans?

I must say that this is one of the best posts I've seen!!
BRAVO!!!!!!!

Don't be shaken, though when a few disagree with you. I for one stand COMPLETELY with you!!!!!!!

------------------

Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member


"I've had it up to here, listening to a small segment of people try to put down America! America's the greatest land on Earth, and we oughta be proud of what we have! I'm proud of America, I'm proud of our people, and I'm gonna prove it. We're American and DAMN proud of it! Frankly I'm getting a little ticked off...go ta ****"... Dink (if anyone knows who originally said this, please let me know!)

[Prime2U]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: WHAT!!!!! So what??? I can't believe I'm reading this. Well, that's just great. So, let's not worry about cause and effect, let's not bother about the historical events that have led up to this happening... If people believe they have a grievance THAT HARD and that much, aren't you even interested to find out what it is?

I've always thought the cause was pretty obvious...
We are dealing is Islamic EXTREMISTS here...and their core tenet is...Either you join our faith, or you die. The US pisses these extremists off in many ways but 2 of them are....
1. The whole Israeli thing. No self respecting extremist wants Jews to have any rights, nor that land. This dates back to Isaac and Ishmael, it isn't anything new because of the US. The US now is involved because they were ASKED (Kuwait cried to us for help too) and because of a host of religious issues and felt obligations.
2. The US promotes freedom of religion....man that has to be the antithesis of Islamic extremists, they don't even allow moderate forms of Islam! They've killed clerics with tolerant interpretations. Read sometime about how the Taliban interprets their faith.

Extremists still hold dear to the old teaching of conversion by the sword. We are the ultimate personification of non-conformity to their goals, and we stand up for other countries that don't want to conform. And so, Bin Laden has used terrorist attacks, not for the damage the attacks themselves would do, because that is only minor. What he wants is for us to make a mistake in bringing him to justice so that he can incite a war between all of the Islamic nations and the western nations (read non-muslim, spreaders of poison in his mind).

I am not anti-islamic by any means, I have several muslim friends. But extremists are a totally different story. They are nuts, and they don't care how much blood the world sheds, they would be happy if in the end only a fraction was left is all of those left were muslim.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Not sure what you mean by spiritual research, 250. Cause and effect can be found by looking at what has gone on in the past. In my book, that's called HISTORY. Maybe you've heard of it.

Silver this is an unnecessarily aggressive post to 250. He's heard of history. No need for the sarcasm.

[AboveTheRimYo]

More opinions and comments thrown in my direction i see! All are welcome as ive said before, allow me to respond then:

DragonMage: Actually i take great pleasure in using both sarcasm & suttle provocation as a means towards drawing a response from my listeners (readers in this case), and frankly the vehement nature of some replies does not concern me in the slightest. Im not exactly sure how youve gained the opinion that im some kind of "propaganda expert" who thinks Americans are "weak-minded sheep", but its good to see your using your imagination in such an entertaining fashion for the rest of us. On the subject of propaganda however, i would have thought that bush's catch-phrase (sure to become his next election slogan) of "fighting for our freedom" was such a painfully obvious attempt to incite the patriotism necessary for a payback war (and its innocent casualties no doubt) - unless of course America has actually been invaded and enslaved by some sort of intergalatic race of muslim loving dark-jedi beings and ive failed to notice.

Domingo - I hope your not referring to me when you suggest sympathising towards terrorists and their actions, as ive never done anything of the kind.

250 - Frankly, it seems you are too far gone already, and i see little point in trying to convince you of your own blindness the real situation. The sad part is that there are without doubt many other Americans with similar (limited) views, and to make matters worse you seem to take great pleasure in encouraging each other.

Skywalker - How very true. Perhaps if they did, they might not bother attempting to convince everyone else how "right" they are about everything?

Silver Cheetah - I agree, we do have a right to our opinions. A sad fact, but yes American policy does affect even those on the other side of the world, economically at least. Probably my main concern there is that a country which has so much global influence happens to be remarkably self-centred, and completely incompetant at learning to happily co-exist with those who hold different ideologies (communism for example) to the American ideals.
Oh, i also love your logo btw.

Prime2U - Well it definately looks as if you genuinely belive what youve written, very nice to know that someone does im sure. If your convinced that even the smallest portion of American oversees intervention is purely benevolent and performed simply to do "justice" (ive noticed that most Americans adore this word - perhaps since its often used to sanction many thoughtless actions, thus sparing attempts to consider later consequences) then you obviously understand very little of international politics. Of course, its a bit like the idea of a "socitey" where people live together and constantly help each other out of the goodness of their hearts. Strange how politicians of any country just dont seem to fit into that idealistic picture....

Prime2U - Funnily enough, i cant think of a culture on earth more "extreme" (or bizaare for that matter) that the US. As to the notion of islamists forcing people to 'join the faith or die' (remembering that historically islam has been the world's most tolerant religion) perhaps these people have been watching how Americans dealt with Communists back in the 1950s?


Again, thanks to all who have replied - youll have to forgive the gratuitous sarcasm no doubt, though i tend to find it helps keep life interesting.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Yorick: Silver this is an unnecessarily aggressive post to 250. He's heard of history. No need for the sarcasm.

250 and I have agreed to differ, and have closed this subject.

Yorick, PLEASE will you stop jumping in on behalf of people who are quite capable of saying themselves when they find a post offensive. They are not children.

As far as I am aware, you are not a moderator, and I am tired of receiving posts from you tut tutting at my posts towards other participants on this board.

If any recipient, or Ziroc, Sazerac, Memnoch et al have a problem with my posts, I'm sure they will be the first to tell me.



------------------


Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Prime2U: I've always thought the cause was pretty obvious... We are dealing is Islamic EXTREMISTS here...and their core tenet is...Either you join our faith, or you die. The US pisses these extremists off in many ways but 2 of them are.... 1. The whole Israeli thing. No self respecting extremist wants Jews to have any rights, nor that land. This dates back to Isaac and Ishmael, it isn't anything new because of the US. The US now is involved because they were ASKED (Kuwait cried to us for help too) and because of a host of religious issues and felt obligations. 2. The US promotes freedom of religion....man that has to be the antithesis of Islamic extremists, they don't even allow moderate forms of Islam! They've killed clerics with tolerant interpretations. Read sometime about how the Taliban interprets their faith.

No, that isn’t what I meant at all. Sigh........

We need to go back further than merely looking at what you see on the surface.

Question: Why are these people extremists? What makes extremists extremist? Do they come out of a vacuum?

Question: Was their reason for carrying out the attacks merely because they wish people who do not want to join their faith to die?

Question: Is Israel really at the root of the problem, and if so, why? Do the Palestinians have any legitimate grievances here that we might recognise, and even relate to?

Question: Is the US really involved in Israel and Kuwait merely because they were ASKED?

Question: Why might bin Laden and other Arabs, ‘extremists’ or not see the US as a spreader of poison?


You’ve made a lot of statements here – could you back them up, please, with some facts? (And Yorick, I’d be grateful if you’d keep out of this, at least until Prime2U has answered. I am genuinely very interested in why he has made the statements he is making, and upon the facts supporting those statements. I know what your opinion is. )

BTW, I'd just like to make it clear that I hold no ruth for the Taliban. Their record on human rights, especially towards women, is appalling. I am not arguing for the Taliban here. I am simply trying to move away from what I see as an extremely simplistic view of the causes of terrorism.

Once you have posted your replies to my questions above, which will clarify your stance for me, I will post my own views on this topic.


------------------


Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

[Prime2U]

Originally posted by AboveTheRimYo: More opinions and comments thrown in my direction i see! All are welcome as ive said before, allow me to respond then: Prime2U - Well it definately looks as if you genuinely belive what youve written, very nice to know that someone does im sure. If your convinced that even the smallest portion of American oversees intervention is purely benevolent and performed simply to do "justice" (ive noticed that most Americans adore this word - perhaps since its often used to sanction many thoughtless actions, thus sparing attempts to consider later consequences) then you obviously understand very little of international politics. Of course, its a bit like the idea of a "socitey" where people live together and constantly help each other out of the goodness of their hearts. Strange how politicians of any country just dont seem to fit into that idealistic picture.... Prime2U - Funnily enough, i cant think of a culture on earth more "extreme" (or bizaare for that matter) that the US. As to the notion of islamists forcing people to 'join the faith or die' (remembering that historically islam has been the world's most tolerant religion) perhaps these people have been watching how Americans dealt with Communists back in the 1950s? Again, thanks to all who have replied - youll have to forgive the gratuitous sarcasm no doubt, though i tend to find it helps keep life interesting.

Well, first off, you truly do wish to flame don't you?
Aside from that, I'm well aware that we have other reasons for many of our actions, and I clearly stated in my post that we may not be intervening only from the goodness of our hearts. I'll not add my sarcasm here and help your flame war along. Funnily enough, I can't think of a whole hell of a lot of differences between our "culture" and that of Australia. Perhaps culture was not the word you meant to use there. Odd when you look at how Aus and the US were originally populated clear through to today....no of course there are no similarities there, my bad. Communists in the 50's... oh you mean STALIN!!!!!
I have no idea how the US was the only country that couldn't see what a benevolent dictator he was. No reason for anyone in the world to worry about an ultra superpower that was taking over provinces under a leader who may one day stop slaughtering his own citizens and start looking at his closest competition.
I also think you need to do a little more research on the Islamic religion since it's inception. Today it is in most cases tolerant indeed, but in the past?
And that is where the extremists base their views. They don't like this new tolerance at all. And if you need proof of that, just look at all the media on the Taliban that's available today. I'd hate to be thrown in jail for having a TV or beaten senseless because I showed part of my face long enough to eat.

* note, sorry if I come across as heated, the sarcasm shown against my intelligence was just slightly annoying


[This message has been edited by Prime2U (edited 10-10-2001).]

[skywalker]

This forum has become very inhospitable to opposing viewpoints, especially if they're directed untowardly to US actions. Every one of these kinds of postss are considered personal attacks. Breath deep first.

Mark