Population vs Mismanagement continued...

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Moridin: There is so much talk of room, room, room...we have so much 'empty' land that we don't have to worry about population growth. What do we do then? Continue to expand our cities until there is nothing left. Sure the US has plenty of open space, but it is dwindling faster than one might think. Our urban areas are sprawling at an enourmous rate. More and more people want to live in the 'suburbs' to get away from the big city, and this is leading to more and more land lost to city development. Ah, but what is one acre here and one acre there? Who cares there is still plenty of land! I grew up in a small town south of Rochester MN. While growing up, a drive to Rochester took me through 8 miles of farmland (from the edge of my town to the edge of Rochester), there was nothing but farms and farm houses (and the tiny Rochester Airport). Now only 8 years since I left you almost cannot distinguish when you leave Rochester and arrive in my hometown. The farmland that once existed is now all housing developments, hotels, and supermarkets. And it is not only this way south to my hometown, but north to Pine Island, West to Byron, and East to Dover-Eyota. Urban sprawl is a problem! We cannot continue to grow and destroy the very land that supports us...there will be a breaking point, it is inevitable.

Exactly, but the thing that allows urban sprawl is the car. Technology and the choices made regarding it's use. 4million people cram into Singapore. The same amount are in Scotland and Norway. Singapore is also filled with trees and plants. The greenest urban area I've seen. Good for birds, heat reduction and quality of life. Even so there is room for a water/forest area in the centre, and forest/army training area in the west. Most of the population is in the south

Sydney has over 4 million people but over a much larger area. Urban sprawl as a result of the car has made it a very large land area city ondeed.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Yorick]

Actually Moridin, I don't think you'll find population spread due to people wanting to get away from the city. It is a matter of economics. Where is the most expensive land - that is wher most people want to live/own land? In the centre of the big city. Manhattan, London and Paris are way more expensive than the outskirts of Perth (Australia, not Scotland). Economics proves you wrong on that point bro...

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Moridin]

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: Exactly! And why is this? Because humans think the whole planet is theirs for the taking, when actually we are but one species amongst millions of others.

It seems that we sometimes forget that we are not the only ones that have to live on this planet! It is disgusting when we overtake land for development driving out any animal species and destroying whatever plant species, and then have the nerve to do things like shoot the deer in the city b/c they are encroaching on our space



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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally posted by Moridin: It seems that we sometimes forget that we are not the only ones that have to live on this planet! It is disgusting when we overtake land for development driving out any animal species and destroying whatever plant species, and then have the nerve to do things like shoot the deer in the city b/c they are encroaching on our space

So true. You may not have heard of this but a few months ago a boy was killed by dingoes on Fraser Island off the east coast of Australia. There was a public outcry to destroy all the dingoes because Fraser Island is a popular tourist destination and it wasn't safe to have wild animals running lose with the tourists around. But the fact is, the dingoes natural food source (wild brumbies) had been destroyed by humans; tourists had been encouraging the hungry dingoes by feeding them and getting photographs with them, and there were signs all around the campsites to not feed dingoes, and not to let children walk around unsupervised. Now of course it is terrible when someone is killed, but the decision to kill dingoes in their native habitat, who killed because of human foolishness and ignorance because it is a tourist destination is ludicrous!

[Moridin]

Originally posted by Yorick: Actually Moridin, I don't think you'll find population spread due to people wanting to get away from the city. It is a matter of economics. Where is the most expensive land - that is wher most people want to live/own land? In the centre of the big city. Manhattan, London and Paris are way more expensive than the outskirts of Perth (Australia, not Scotland). Economics proves you wrong on that point bro...

I beg to differ on this point! I agree that the center of any city is expensive to live in, due mainly to the competition of business which can afford land space and residential that cannot! However, if you look outside the actual downtown area and just go out one or two miles it is a vastly different story! Take Minneapolis for example. We have housing in downtown, expensive but not terribly so...but if you travel just 1.5 miles from the center of downtown you are in the middle of the least expensive place to live in the entire metropolitan area! A four bedroom house costs about $100,000 in this area compared to a 4 bedroom in the suburbs for more like $250,000! If you want to bring economics into it, it is actually more expensive to live in the suburbs.

One of our local newspapers did a one-week special look at Urban Sprawl here in the Twin Cities...it is a very well written and well researched article. Here are some excerpts from why urban sprawl exists (and yes it is mainly due to the car!)
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``In America there is more space where nobody is than where anybody is. That is what makes America what it is.'' -- Gertrude Stein

As Stein recognized, boundless space and the opportunity it provides for growth and movement have always been at the core of the American dream.

People choose places to live for different reasons, but for many Americans a place in the country amid ample acreage remains a potent ideal.

In this sense, the steady occupation of land at the fringes of the Twin Cities area can be seen as the fulfillment of a collective vision.

``We've got this fixation in our heads that the only thing we can build is a country house,'' says Kunstler, who also notes that Americans have a ``deep traditional antipathy toward cities.''

The simple facts of geography have also helped encourage sprawl here. With no large body of water, high mountains or other natural impediments to expansion, the Twin Cities have been able to spread out easily in all directions from their central cores. Today, Minneapolis-St. Paul is one of the least dense major metropolitan areas in the nation, with only Atlanta and Kansas City averaging fewer people per square mile.

Another historical factor -- wealth -- also helps explain the Twin Cities' lack of density. ``This has always been a pretty prosperous place,'' Adams says, noting that the Twin Cities for many years had the lowest poverty levels of any metropolitan area in the nation. And because money buys space, Twin Citians have generally steered clear of high-density housing.

Here is the link if you wish to read more
Sprawl



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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Moridin: I beg to differ on this point! I agree that the center of any city is expensive to live in, due mainly to the competition of business which can afford land space and residential that cannot! However, if you look outside the actual downtown area and just go out one or two miles it is a vastly different story! Take Minneapolis for example. We have housing in downtown, expensive but not terribly so...but if you travel just 1.5 miles from the center of downtown you are in the middle of the least expensive place to live in the entire metropolitan area! A four bedroom house costs about $100,000 in this area compared to a 4 bedroom in the suburbs for more like $250,000! If you want to bring economics into it, it is actually more expensive to live in the suburbs. One of our local newspapers did a one-week special look at Urban Sprawl here in the Twin Cities...it is a very well written and well researched article. Here are some excerpts from why urban sprawl exists (and yes it is mainly due to the car!)

Moridin, Minneapolis is still way cheaper than Manhattan. People generally want to be close to their work. I'm glad that we agree that the thing that allows urban sprawl is the car!

The same is true for most major world cities. If heaps of people wanted to "get away from it all" New Zealand would be overcrowded instead of having 3.5 million people. Why are more and more New Zealanders leaving their beautiful paradisial home? (Perhaps Azurewolf can answer this.)



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Keep that power Flowin!

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All your base are belong to us! How Are you gentlemen?

The Spaminyte Emperor
Fish?
***********************
Welcome to your doom!!!
***********************
Official villain/demon of IW!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: So true. You may not have heard of this but a few months ago a boy was killed by dingoes on Fraser Island off the east coast of Australia. There was a public outcry to destroy all the dingoes because Fraser Island is a popular tourist destination and it wasn't safe to have wild animals running lose with the tourists around. But the fact is, the dingoes natural food source (wild brumbies) had been destroyed by humans; tourists had been encouraging the hungry dingoes by feeding them and getting photographs with them, and there were signs all around the campsites to not feed dingoes, and not to let children walk around unsupervised. Now of course it is terrible when someone is killed, but the decision to kill dingoes in their native habitat, who killed because of human foolishness and ignorance because it is a tourist destination is ludicrous!

Their native habitat? I see you failed to note that the dingo is/was a hunting dog introduced by the Aboriginies. This "native" dog wiped out the Thyacaline (Tasmanian Tiger) from mainland Australia.

Besides this is an example of bad knee-jerk political decision making, not overpopulation.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Moridin: In America there is more space where nobody is than where anybody is. That is what makes America what it is.'' -- Gertrude Stein)

I disagree with this on Canadas existence alone. Canada is larger and with only 30 million people next to the USA's 250? million plus.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally posted by Yorick: Besides this is an example of bad knee-jerk political decision making, not overpopulation.

I wasn't blaming this on overpopulation perse, I was responding to a comment that humans often forget that they are not the only species that is important on the planet, and that nature is not just there for their convenience. Although I would disagree that this is knee-jerk political decision-making, you'll find that many people believed that killing the dingoes was the best thing to do, and in fact the government did not kill them all as was demanded by many. It is indicative of the mentality that humans are superior and nature is their resource to be exploited, even in their holiday destinations.