Lords of Darkness

WOW Memmy. Great job. This stuff kicks ass. Thumbs up.

[Luvian]

I don't like the third edition stats of these monsters, especially all the lords of hell. They are too weak.

[Kronostia]

I agree..
I am not entirely sure but you could if you planned it very well probably beat most of these creatures. Altough the Ruler of the 9th layer of Hell could prove more then a match [img]smile.gif[/img]

[caleb]

On their own you may be able to defeat them but most of these guys have their own personal armys.

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Luvian: I don't like the third edition stats of these monsters, especially all the lords of hell. They are too weak.

Weak? [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img]

[Sir Exxon]

Hey, Mario, do you have any other cool historys to us? Like for an example how the Nine Hells were created?
Or did you tell all in he other post?

[Luvian]

Yes, they are too weak. I don't even like the fact that they published atributes. Before the third edition, they never published any stats, all you knew about the Lord of hell is that he was a Quasi-Power, ruling all of hell and it's innabitant by his might. Now he is just a high level monster. He has a chalenge rating of 44, not a lot for such an entity. Hell is ruled by strenght. If I was the one doing his attributes (althought i think such powerfull entities should not have atributes) I would make him so that you would need all the other rulers of hell and their personal army to have a slight chance to beat him. Sure, a chalenge rating of 44 might seem high for a group of player, but he has never been made to be defeated by other player, he is one of the most powerfull entities of the Multiverse.

Tiamat has a chalenge rating of 25!! She is a godess and they are telling us that a level 25 party has a very good chance of killing her! I could understand if these where only the stats of her avatar, I guess, but that's all.

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Luvian: Yes, they are too weak. I don't even like the fact that they published atributes. Before the third edition, they never published any stats, all you knew about the Lord of hell is that he was a Quasi-Power, ruling all of hell and it's innabitant by his might. Now he is just a high level monster. He has a chalenge rating of 44, not a lot for such an entity. Hell is ruled by strenght. If I was the one doing his attributes (althought i think such powerfull entities should not have atributes) I would make him so that you would need all the other rulers of hell and their personal army to have a slight chance to beat him. Sure, a chalenge rating of 44 might seem high for a group of player, but he has never been made to be defeated by other player, he is one of the most powerfull entities of the Multiverse. Tiamat has a chalenge rating of 25!! She is a godess and they are telling us that a level 25 party has a very good chance of killing her! I could understand if these where only the stats of her avatar, I guess, but that's all.

I think that maybe "too weak" might not be the best way to describe them - rather, in 3rd Ed their limits have been clearly defined and quantified. It was only in 1st Ed D&D that demon princes/deities/powers were not defined numerically - in AD&D, remember the Deities and Demigods supplement? It had all the gods of all the pantheons listed with all their powers.

In 2nd Ed the demon princes/archdevils were shrimps (I think that Asmodeus had 176hp or something) and so in 3rd Ed they have been significantly beefed up, as befitting their status. The reason that they have been given stats, IMO, is because they are NOT true deities (with the definition of a deity being one who can grant spells to worshippers). The possible exceptions would be Asmodeus, Tiamat and Lolth (who is a demoness but also a deity, which makes one of the most powerful of the demonlords).

Keep in mind also that in 3rd Ed level 25 is just about unattainable by any except munchkins and munchkin DMs. It's not like BG2/ToB where you can get up to level 40. To put things into perspective:

Elminster is a 35th level character and he is just about the most powerful mortal in Faerun. The Simbul of Aglarond is a 32nd-level character. Larloch the Shadowking, who was mighty in the days of Netheril, 1500 years ago, is a 32nd level character. Fzoul Chembryl, leader of the Zhentarim and Chosen of Bane, is "only" a 17th level character.

To have even ONE 25th level character would be extremely rare - to have FOUR of them would be just about impossible. How many Elminsters/Simbuls/Fzouls would band together to fight a goddess? Not many.

Anyway, this is how I see the totem pole:

• SUPREME POWERS: eg Ao, Highgod, Chaos
• GREATER POWERS: eg. Tyr, Mystra, Cyric, Bane, Shar, Horus-Re, Corellon Larethian; Asmodeus, King of the Nine Hells
• INTERMEDIATE POWERS (eg. Lolth, Umberlee, Tymora, Hanali Celanil, Isis, Set);
• LESSER POWERS (eg. Torm, Tiamat, Loviatar, Waukeen, Azuth) as well as Abyssal Princes (eg. Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt) as well as the rest of the Lords of the Nine (eg. Mephistopheles, Baalzebul, Belial); the Fairy Queen of the eladrin (Arborea); the Five Companions of the guardinals (Elysium); the Throne Archons of Mt Celestia; the General of Gehenna (Lord of the Yugoloths)
• DEMIPOWERS (eg. Jergal, Gargauth, Ulutiu, Gwaeron Windstrom) as well as Lesser Abyssal Lords (eg. Yeenoghu, Kostchtchie) as well as the Dark Eight and other Dukes of Hell (eg. Bael, Baalberith)
  

Just my 2c. I don't claim to be right in this instance.

[ 04-24-2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

[Ar-Cunin]

To have even ONE 25th level character would be extremely rare - to have FOUR of them would be just about impossible. How many Elminsters/Simbuls/Fzouls would band together to fight a goddess? Not many.

Hey Memnoch - did you even read the book Firebeard Elvenhair (sp?) gives you in BG1 (something with knucklebones, skullthrowing and another thing). It gives the story of THREE characters going after a god. So if three would -why not four? just thought I would mention it

[ 04-24-2002, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Ar-Cunin ]

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Sir Exxon: Hey, Mario, do you have any other cool historys to us? Like for an example how the Nine Hells were created? Or did you tell all in he other post?

Stay tuned. [img]smile.gif[/img]