Matrix:Reloaded Review Comments..SPOILERS!!!!!!!

[Tancred]

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: Its something thats always concerned me slightly - the machines will happily kill anyone who even remotely gets in their way. They'll kill people without thinking about it. I'm not sure how realistic that would be, considering the stated purpose of the Matrix.

That was something that occurred to me too, but a throwaway line in the first film provides a partial solution, as Morpheus explains his first experience seeing the endless fields of human production:

"{I} watch them liquefy the dead so they could be fed intravenously to the living."

Therefore the odd dead human isn't such a big loss; they just become life support goo for the crop as a whole. I'm not sure the machines could keep the whole of their humans fed on the remains of those who had simply died of old age, after all.

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by Azred: <font color = lightgreen> I personally don't like the idea that the "real world" in the movie is another Matrix. As far as the context and the world-design of the movie is concerned, it doesn't make any sense. If the "real world" is just another level of the Matrix, then why bother creating fake sentinel robots to hunt down humans? If someone thinks they have become unplugged and are causing a problem, then simply unplug them for real, dump the corpse, and grow two new humans to replace them. The fact that merging with Smith has given Neo the ability to sense and effect machines in the real world is more intriguing, because now Neo can alter both the inner world of the Matrix and the real world. My only question is whether he got this ability from Smith or from the Oracle.... [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] </font>

I just saw the film tonight - my first impression was that the only way Neo could detroy the Sentinels in the real world was if it WAS another layer of Matrix encompassing the first one. However I then spoke to my mates about it and we formulated another theory:
Say the real world is real...lets say Neo got his ability to effect machines from Smith. I didn't quite understand how Zion had been destroyed 5 times. What we decided was that they meant that every time it is destroyed, due to the imprefections of the Matrix, some new humans will always sense that it is not real and unplug themselves and build a new Zion. Thus the machines have to keep destroying it. They can never just wipe out the humans because they need them for power and the imprefections of the Matrix mean that somewhere some humans will always unplug themselves and build a new Zion? The One is just The Architect's way of controlling the inner Matrix. The Architect is just another machine/program?

I didn't quite understand the two doors thing at the end (can't remember exactly): one door meant the Matrix was reloaded and humanity was saved and the other meant Trinity was saved, or what was it? Bah! Can't remember and didn't quite get it to begin with.

What I'd really appreciate is if someone who thinks they understand what the filmmakers are trying to say, explained the whole thing about the 5 destructions of Zion and the bit about the Architect and how Neo was designed? I guess that all makes sense if the real world IS a shell Matrix. But if that's true I still don't remember/understand about what the two doors would do? Bah! I'm tired!


Some really interesting discussion guys [img]smile.gif[/img] That's what I always liked about these films - not the crazy action scenes and special effects but the way it actually makes you think so much about what the film is trying to say - films rarely do that [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 05-22-2003, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

[Timber Loftis]

Vaskez, let us assume the "real world" is real. Reading a bunch of the above stuff, from philosophy about a perfect system needing choice and imperfection, to common sense practicalities, "The One" program was created to reload the Matrix. Well, "The One" program can't exist unless "The One" can escape the Matrix, learn the truth of existence, and find the Architect.

In order for "The One" to exist, then, rogue humans must exist to propogate and fullfill the Prophecy. Well, the computer creates rogue humans by unplugging especially talented folks and letting/helping them find/build Zion. If you are thinking "what about Tank" or other "Naturals," well over generations they are born. Neo and Trinity would have a "natural" as a child, for instance. Anywho, over time, the community grows, the prophecy grows, and The One is "born" -- a human with special talents and perhaps a special program or two for high-speed operation within The Matrix.

Remember, guys, Neo IS part machine. He can't forget what he "knows" and that means, I presume, his statement "I know Kung Fu" means he knows it in the real world too (even though gravity applies ).

Anyway, The One finds the architect, realizes that humans will die off completely if the machines die off, and chooses the "reload" door. Then, the machines descend on Zion, kill people, limit the numbers, kill the historical memory, and go pull a few new folks from the Matrix to start it all over again.

Whew -- fingers need a break. Maybe more tomorrow.

[Vaskez]

So that's your take on it Timber? Sounds good... and makes sense, apart from:

How do you know Neo IS part machine? Or are you just assuming that because he can effect machines in the Real World?

So you're saying the only reason for the machines to create the whole The One program and to keep allowing humans to rebuild Zion is because the Matrix NEEDS to have imperfections in it i.e. rogue humans messing around from the outside?

If this is all true, and Neo chose the door to save Trinity then what does that mean? The Matrix won't reload? Hmmm....guess we have to wait for the 3rd film...

[ 05-22-2003, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

<font color="#f683ad">I think he only ment that the reason Neo is part machine is because he swapped spit with Mr. Smith (metaphoricly).

Neo stating "I know Kung Fu" was an astonished reaction on his part to having the knowledge downloaded into him by Tank...I think. </font>

[Azred]

<font color = lightgreen>Ah, yes. Merovingians. The line descended from Merovee, King of the Franks and, according to other sources, descendants of Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene, both of whom had been forced to flee to France because they could not remain in Israel. The secret society the Priory of Zion is supposedly dedicated to returning France to the control of the Merovingians, whose lineage they have protected though the centuries. This, of course, explains why the Merovingian speaks French.

Timber Loftis, I'll mention your name at our next monthly meeting re: your joining the Illuminati. In the meantime, bury $3,125 in your back yard and someone will contact you within the week. [img]graemlins/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif[/img]

Rokenn, Neo didn't become the One until his next life. He did die, remember? This is life number two for him. After all, Smith did tell him at the beginning of the first movie that "it seems you have been living two lives".

Intangibility means you are phasing through matter. Without the ability to levitate (because you couldn't push against anything to move yourself around) you would fall into the ground until you reached the center of the earth; this explains the Ghosts' ability to move while phased. Of course, you can't breathe while phased, because the air passes through you; fortunately, they don't need to breathe. However, because matter phases through you, buffeting will never be a problem. The worst problem would be if you were to pull that stunt of waiting to unphase until you are in the front seat of a vehicle and being accelerated from 0 to fast almost instantly. (as if phasing were real I love psuedo-science)

I still think there are only two levels of existence here: the Real World and the Matrix. The machines and humans have a predator-prey coexistence; a study of dynamic equations show that the predator species must never kill all the prey species or both species will perish. This means that machines have to have an appropriate "culling" procedure, a periodic population control: too few humans and both species die; too many humans and the risk of too many waking up and breaking free is too high.
Smith and Neo are they keys needed to help humans and machines reach a new level of interdependence and cooperation. The problem is that machines don't really understand human behavior, despite the advanced level of AI they may possess--emotions are biological reactions (all those chemicals mixing together) and the machines cannot have this. Listen to Councilor West's speech again--the two species must come to an agreement or both die.

Another duality: Trinity brought Neo back to life in the Real World while Neo brought Trinity back to life in the Matrix.

Yes, the statement "I know Kung Fu" means that he has the motions downloaded into his brain. However, in the Real World he doesn't have the motor control to actually use that knowledge, unless he practices the moves daily. </font>

[Azred]

<font color = lightgreen>The Two Doors. One leads to the Source and will trigger the Reload but Trinity will die. Unfortunately, this is not a good choice, because humanity cannot be saved this way--at best, some people will escape the destruction of Zion and the whole cycle begins again. The other door leads back to the Matrix, allowing Neo to save Trinity but Zion will be attacked. Neo has no choice but to save her, because she provides the spirit Neo needs in order to continue fighting for humanity.

Like I said earlier, the machines and humans have a predator-prey situation. The machines allow Zion as a place for humans who are freed to live; when their population gets too big they engage in some "population control".

The Architects thinks of the Matrix as perfect. Kurt Godel proved, back in the 1930s, that in any axiomatic system (like a computer system) there will be true statements in that system that cannot be proven by using the axioms. In short, there are things that are true--obviously true--but cannot be proven, so you must accept them on faith (the fact that the statement is true).

In order for something to be perfect, there must be imperfections put in place. This is because Reality is not perfect, or rather that imperfect beings cannot create perfection. Even machines are not perfect, depsite claims to the contrary. Hence, the Matrix is imperfect, which is why self-check programs like the Oracle exist and why Reloads are needed every now and then. Notice that all the Merovingian's servant are technically imperfections, because they are holdovers from previous versions that the current Matrix cannot quite completely digest. As is Neo. As is Smith.
Yes, the Matrix must have imperfections, because the "perfect" Matrix had the effect that "entire crops were lost", according to Smith.

Just how far-reaching is Neo's ability to change what he chooses in the Matrix? Could he reprogram an Agent? Could he simply dissolve another being's avatar? Could he use doors like the Keymaker does without the use of keys?

I don't claim to be able to speak for the Wachowski brothers, of course. Just some observations made by combining mathematical theory, comprative religion, philosophy and, as someone mentioned here earlier, "at best Azred is speculating". In short, I'm still having fun. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img] </font>

[Vaskez]

Hehe thanks Azred, I'm also havin a laugh reading your speculations It's always funny when people try to argue about how something is realistic and logical in a fantasy world. But I do that too because after all, we accept it as long as the creators of the fantasy world have set rules for themselves and then stick to those rules. The only time we complain is when the world creators break their own rules and we don't understand their logic. That is what's happening now: I didn't understand how the story fit into the world created in the film and now we have several theories

So the Oracle is also just another program used to propagate the "The One" story.
I suspected that as soon as I learned that the whole prophecy is a makeshift cos otherwise they would be able to meet her outside the Matrix as well.

[ 05-23-2003, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

[Link]

Neo's ability to change things in the Matrix is only limited by what he believes is true, and what he wants to believe. As with the jumping test in the first part of the Matrix; Neo is told to believe in what he can, and he can do this ihe does so. According to his 'rule' he should be able to do anything.

I saw the movie last night, and at first I thought it was pretty lame (don't shoot me!) but when the story began to unfold, it got better and better. What I don't seem to understand is the bond between Smith and Neo, no matter how hard and long I think about it. What happened in the first movie was that Neo 'dove' into Smith, breaking his code apart, and then 'returning' to the Matrix (you see the ripples; same ones when he's about to blast off) But he didn't kill Smith somehow, and the why and how still won't come.. [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] Is it true that Neo and Smith somehow exchanged their codes to each other? But why would that happen then?

[ 05-23-2003, 06:16 AM: Message edited by: Link ]

[Legolas]

I really enjoy trying to figure out the story in and behind the matrix movies, but I must say I thought the way it was portrayed in the Matrix Reloaded was somewhat disappointing. The novelty of the first part wasn't there, everything seemed to be almost routine. The fights, especially, seemed to lack purpose even though there were some very nice effects.
There's probably a reason for that though... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

One thing I can't figure out is how you reset the matrix. Sure, you place a bit of code in someone's avatar and let him figure out what's going on. Send an army to Zion to force the One to return to the source and there the code can trigger a resetting of the system. You repopulate Zion, but using people from inside the Matrix who have no idea what's going on.
And if I recall correctly you'd start with sixteen adults, of which nine are female. Assuming five generations over 100 years, with half of those born also female, and an insignificant amount of newcomers from inside the matrix, assuming noone would die, to reach a quarter of a million inhabitants, on average people would have no fewer than 12.4 siblings. Now, either my calculations are way off, I'm using the wrong numbers or it's plain illogical.
Assuming the latter, there must be a different reason behind the numbers mentioned in the movie. I wonder what that might be.

In any case, they are supposed to learn to use the technology (and reproduce it, or you'd end up without any alien-looking hoovercrafts to broadcast, get into the Matrix and pull anyone else out) for no reason other than to force the next One to pick the door resetting the matrix of his own free will [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img]
You make choices based on your experiences and what you know (like kong-fu [img]tongue.gif[/img] ), there should be many much more easier and safer (more controlable) ways of forcing the One to return to the source and choose to reset the matrix.

Like the mixed code idea BTW. From the first movie I'm led to believe the agents are machines rather than programs, and having them mix would explain why Neo can sense the sentinels and affect them. He's part man, part machine, and part something unidentifiable now, and there is no reason his abilities should be limited to those of regular mortals, even if he retains some weaknesses.
The falling into a coma, would suggest that it took an extreme effort of will to halt the sentinels, but that does not tell us anything about whether or not he is a real world 'superman'.