Roleplaying/Alignment Dilemmas

[Malthaussen]

Nope, Q, it doesn't work. If my soi-disant "personal code of honor" tells me that it is all right to steal, how long in r/l do you think I'd stay out of jail? Regardless of what my inner voice tells me, it is society that makes the laws.

In D&D terms, a lawful character believes that the rule of law, ie consensual morality, is paramount and that ethics do not vary by situation or circumstances. The kind of character you describe is closer to what D&D rules would call "neutral," whether for good or evil.

Even the deepest-dyed villain, say Jon Irenicus for example, may believe that he is "right" in what he is doing. By your definition, Irenicus's alignment would be Lawful, since he is following his own code. By D&D definitions, he is not lawful, and unquestionably evil because he pursues his own desires regardless of the expense to other beings.

Furthermore, in D&D rules it is impossible for a thief to be a lawful character. But by your definition of "law," if a thief's "personal code of honor" defined stealing as lawful, he would be a lawful character. Your definition and the D&D rules are incompatible.

-- Mal

[ElfBane]

Originally posted by Malthaussen: Are you snide by profession? I state right after the first part of what you quote "Operating within the rules, however..." Thus negating any self-contradiction. In other words, I don't like the rule, but if one must use it, what follows is to be considered. Secondly, I state "Of course, individual gradients of LG behavior may modify this; your milage may vary." ie, one LG paladin or character may see things this way, others may not. As you style yourself a "pedantic mistress of language" I should think you would not miss such nuances in a text. That having been said, I agree with you. I mention the reactions of other characters only as one form of indicating how a character may react. In the D&D style of alignment rules, LG characters are more than a little inflexible: if one interprets law or good in idiosyncratic ways, they are considered not "really" LG. An LG character must uphold law at the expense of good, if a choice must be made, or else how would he differ from an NG or CG character? -- Mal

Congratulations.. you have just met Illumina. Do not cross her or in ANY WAY dis her,, or you will be banned. The moderators that rule this board genuflect to Illumina,,, and if she wishes you banned,,,,,,, it WILL happen.

[Q'alooaith]

Originally posted by Malthaussen: Nope, Q, it doesn't work. If my soi-disant "personal code of honor" tells me that it is all right to steal, how long in r/l do you think I'd stay out of jail? Regardless of what my inner voice tells me, it is society that makes the laws.

Excuse me!!

You are saying I'm wrong because you can't understand the word "Honnor"? because that's what your entire statment tell's me.

My point was not that a code of honnor make a lawfull persona, but rather a lawfull persona would follow a code of honnor.

Look at lawfull's opposed alignment, it's not Unlawfull, but chaos.


Somone who is unlawfull but still follow's a code of honnor could be considered Lawfull Evil.


Now all you have to do is see it's pointless arguing about it, the only rule in D&D that is set in stone is this; "The DM's word is law". Everything else is just to help the DM keep things simple.

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by ElfBane: Congratulations.. you have just met Illumina. Do not cross her or in ANY WAY dis her,, or you will be banned. The moderators that rule this board genuflect to Illumina,,, and if she wishes you banned,,,,,,, it WILL happen.

Uhhhhh....what?? Granted, if some moronic troll comes on here, spouting insults and profanity and generally not giving a damn about their own ego, Illumina will urge that they be banned--and hey, what a coincidence, they do indeed get banned shortly thereafter. That doesn't mean there must be a connection, however.

A few notes:

- I find it interesting that the person who actually casts the Flamestrike is Viconia herself. (At least, that's how it was in my game pre-BaldurDash, I haven't checked it recently.) Guess we can add this to the list of bizarre suicides.

- For the last time, the City Guards do NOT attack you if you free Viconia. The Fanatics attack you. The City Guards do not attack you. The Fanatics attack you.

- I do not find it inconceivable that a city that supports a large, ornate Temple of Talos (in exchange for Talos not smiting the city with disaster) should also seek to appease Priests of Beshaba (in exchange for Beshaba not smiting the city with disaster).

- For all we know, the Priest just happened to be wandering by when the mob had already tied Viconia to the stake, and jumped at the opportunity to make a speech about bad luck.

- Given the knowledge (which we can assume all of Amn knows about) that Drow love to stage brief, bloody raids of surfacer settlements and take back trophies, I think the crowd is perfectly justified in their assumption that Viconia entered the city with murderous intentions.

Given all this, I say: Due to the general lack of information on the situation, I have no permanent opinion about whether of not Viconia's execution can be considered 'Lawful.' Each PC I play must make their own decision.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally posted by ElfBane: quote: Originally posted by Malthaussen: Are you snide by profession? I state right after the first part of what you quote "Operating within the rules, however..." Thus negating any self-contradiction. In other words, I don't like the rule, but if one must use it, what follows is to be considered. Secondly, I state "Of course, individual gradients of LG behavior may modify this; your milage may vary." ie, one LG paladin or character may see things this way, others may not. As you style yourself a "pedantic mistress of language" I should think you would not miss such nuances in a text. That having been said, I agree with you. I mention the reactions of other characters only as one form of indicating how a character may react. In the D&D style of alignment rules, LG characters are more than a little inflexible: if one interprets law or good in idiosyncratic ways, they are considered not "really" LG. An LG character must uphold law at the expense of good, if a choice must be made, or else how would he differ from an NG or CG character? -- Mal

Congratulations.. you have just met Illumina. Do not cross her or in ANY WAY dis her,, or you will be banned. The moderators that rule this board genuflect to Illumina,,, and if she wishes you banned,,,,,,, it WILL happen. [/QUOTE]I've had just about enough of this. If you have a problem with me, confront *me* and leave the board at large out of it. I don't know how I've crossed you in the past, but let me set the record straight. I have personally never requested the banning or suspension of another member. Never have, and never will. AND, if you're suspended for flamebating me.... repeatedly at this point... it will also not be because I reported you or called for it. Thank you and enjoy your day.

And if a word you spoke was true, you would have been banned already.

Malthaussen: Someone else accused me of being the overly pedantic mistress of language. I apologize if I was overly rude to you. I have no acceptable excuse for such behavior except for the fact that it hasn't been a very good holiday.

[ 11-26-2004, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: Illumina Drathiran'ar ]

[Dirty Meg]

Originally posted by ElfBane: Congratulations.. you have just met Illumina. Do not cross her or in ANY WAY dis her,, or you will be banned. The moderators that rule this board genuflect to Illumina,,, and if she wishes you banned,,,,,,, it WILL happen.

Do you have any specific examples to verify what you are saying, Elfbane, or are you just sharing with us the strange products of your rabid imagination?

[Dirty Meg]

I would regard a character as lawful if their actions were governed by principles which met the following criteria:
They must follow a strict set of rules, even if breaking those rules would be a greater good, for example, if one of those rules was 'thou shalt not kill', they would not kill anyone, even if they had good reason to believe that person was about to go on a killing spree.
The set of rules which they follow are not their own personal morals, but are imposed on them by some kind of institution, such as a government, a religious order, or a country club.

[ 11-27-2004, 06:13 AM: Message edited by: Dirty Meg ]

[LennonCook]

Originally posted by Dirty Meg: I would regard a character as lawful if their actions where governed by principles which met the following criteria: They must follow a strict set of rules, even if breaking those rules would be a greater good, for example, if one of those rules was 'thou shalt not kill', they would not kill anyone, even if they had good reason to believe that person was about to go on a killing spree. The set of rules which they follow are not their own personal morals, but are imposed on them by some kind of institution, such as a government, a religious order, or a country club.

Exactly. Lawful != follows the laws of the land. Lawful = follows a set of laws. Which is why two Paladins might react to the same situation differently: what Keldorn does is based on how he interprets Torm's law. Another Paladin might interpret that law differently, or might follow a different set of laws. Also, the "Good" portion of it allows room for their own instincts to kick in: following laws fanatically makes you Lawful Neutral.

[Cerek]

Originally posted by LennonCook: Exactly. Lawful != follows the laws of the land. Lawful = follows a set of laws. Which is why two Paladins might react to the same situation differently: what Keldorn does is based on how he interprets Torm's law. Another Paladin might interpret that law differently, or might follow a different set of laws. Also, the "Good" portion of it allows room for their own instincts to kick in: following laws fanatically makes you Lawful Neutral.

Preeeee-cisely!!! If you look in the Player's Handbook OR under the "Lawful Good" alignment during BG2 character creation, it explains that the character believes that the Laws of Society are necessary for the greater good and are to be enforced and obeyed - even if the paladin or other LG character may personally disagree with the law itself. It has nothing to do with a personal code of honor - Yoshimo has a personal code of honor. LAWFUL means that they follow and obey the LAWS set down by society.

[Cerek]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: quote: Originally posted by Cerek: quote: Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: Unfortunately, I'm away from my books... But research Beshaba. This is the strongest hint that the execution isn't legit. Anyone living in Faerun would be familiar with Beshaba... and would know right away that Amn does not endorse her in *any* way, shape, or form.

Aaahhhh....but "researching Besheba" actually contradicts one of Riftmakers main arguments - that it doesn't matter what actually happened between your PC and Viconia in BG1 (I didn't let her join the party myself)...what matters is what the GAME ITSELF tells you happened. Other than using the title "Maid of Misrule", there isn't enough information given to the PC to know that Besheba is an evil diety. [/QUOTE]Gorion was a smart man. The PC grew up in Candlekeep. Faerun is a diverse world with more gods than I can count. I'm sure that Gorion saw to it that the PC recieved a well-rounded education. This would have included a bit of theology.

Living in Faerun for 18-some-odd years and not knowing about its gods is like not knowing about its major geographical features, surrounding countries, oceans, constellations, things like that. And Beshaba is a deity widely feared... I wouldn't make this argument for all deities (I don't expect the PC, or many people here, to know who Sharess is, for example) but it's a fair bet that the PC is familiar with Tymora and Beshaba, Lathander, Helm, Tyr, Torm, Oghma, Selune, Shar, Sune, Chauntea, Talos... The list goes on. Converse with the priests in the Temple District: "I've heard that Helm is a stern and uncaring deity." Nobody tells the PC this, it's just something they've picked up.

One last thing... Beshaba is mentioned in the book "History of the Fateful Coin." You deliver that book to... What's his name... Firebead Elvenhair... In Beregost. Surely the PC flipped through it before delivering it.

Just because the information isn't given to the PC doesn't mean the PC doesn't know it. The thief PC is never "told" how to pick a lock, the paladin is never "told" about their own god, the ranger is never "told" about monsters... So how did they select a racial enemy? Stuff happens before that fateful day in Candlekeep. [/QUOTE]Sorry, Illumina, but you're switching your argument from the knowledge of the player to the knowledge of the PC. In your first post, you said you are away from your books, but researching Besheba would let the player know that she is evil.

Then you switch the argument to say that the PC would automatically have all this knowledge from Gorion's tutoring and the books at Candlekeep.

That may be true, but the fact is that the characters actions DO DEPEND on the player's knowledge. I don't have any Forgotten Realms books and am only vaguely familiar with the most major gods. I have NO IDEA who Besheba is and I have NO WAY of finding out from the info given in the game.

The ONLY indications given to the PLAYER that the execution isn't on the up-and-up is that the cleric uses Besheba's title as the "Maid of Misrule" (which should be a BIG clue to the Lawful PC) and the "followers" of Besheba are referred to as "fanatics".

No matter HOW you argue the various points, in the end, it is the PLAYER that determines how the PC acts (or reacts), so any "knowledge" used MUST be available to the PLAYER instead of assumed to be imparted to the PC. Yeah, Besheba is apparantly mentioned in one of the numerous books you find while searching various locations, but honostly, who actually READS those books in the first place?

So to say that the player should "know" about Besheba because Gorion was a smart tutor and there were volumes of books at Candlekeep is a moot argument. NONE of that actually tells the PLAYER anything useful about Besheba.