BG dragons

[Alson]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: ToB Item Spoiler ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ You forgot the Larloch's Minor Drain that adds an additional 1d4 dmg AND adds to your MaxHp which STACKS. I had Keldorn nearly having 300 Hps thanks to Foebane, and he was dualwielding it with the Purifier( main-hand, Foebane in OFF-hand). Imagine if I did not dualwield... consider the HEALING and HP BOOST then. Oh... and it adds +6 vs undead, shapeshifters, and all extra-planar beings (demons, planetars, etc). The damage potential and abilities are superior to the Equaliser.

I didn't forgot - i was just talking about base damage.
As you probably know - "additional" != "base". [img]tongue.gif[/img]

But all in all, i agree - Foebane +5 trumps Equalizer +3, big time.
But what about other ToB items? Short Sword of Mask +5? Yamato +4? Usuno's Blade? Hindo's Doom? Even Spectral Brand?
The Equalizer tops them all, IMO.

[Dundee Slaytern]

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Originally posted by Alson: I didn't forgot - i was just talking about base damage. As you probably know - "additional" != "base". [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Eh? Base physical damage you mean? When I talk about base damage, I refer to the total damage, or else I would exclude Flail of Ages' elemental damage too. In any case, you still left out the +6 Foebane gets against various foes.

If you want to talk about the bare minimum of bare minimums in terms of base physical damage, Foebane trounces the Equaliser with 2d4+5 compared to 1d8.

But all in all, i agree - Foebane +5 trumps Equalizer +3, big time. But what about other ToB items? Short Sword of Mask +5? Yamato +4? Usuno's Blade? Hindo's Doom? Even Spectral Brand? The Equalizer tops them all, IMO.

Short Sword of Mask? No way the Equaliser can compete with that weapon.

Yamato +4 and Usuno's Blade +4 are beaten alright, but hey... so are the Short Sword of Backstabbing +3, Cuttthroat +4, Flame Tongue, etc... ...

I did not say the Equaliser was the worst weapon, I say it is mediorce( to put it nicely) against the best weapons.

Hindo's Doom I would say fares comparably. A tie if you will.

HD is more of a defensive weapon.

Spectral Brand outrights win.

[Alson]

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Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Short Sword of Mask? No way the Equaliser can compete with that weapon.

Huh? The SSoM is pathetic!
Equalizer trumps it in both damage and immunities terms.
15% of Level Draining 1 level? Boho. This could have been useful if enemy spellcaster would actually memorize their spells - most of them just fire them from scripts, memorized or not.

Hindo's Doom I would say fares comparably. A tie if you will. HD is more of a defensive weapon.

Hmmmm... Okay.
That's probably it - i prefer offense than defense, so i found Equalizer more useful.

Spectral Brand outrights win.

As a Main Hand weapon? Sure.
As an Off Hand weapon? No way.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Alson: ToB Items Spoilers * * * * * * Huh? The SSoM is pathetic! Equalizer trumps it in both damage and immunities terms. 15% of Level Draining 1 level? Boho. This could have been useful if enemy spellcaster would actually memorize their spells - most of them just fire them from scripts, memorized or not.

That is not true. Only the Bosses do such things. Run of the mill Mages do memorise their spells. Besides, Level Drain also means less HP, worse THACO, worse saving throws, and potential death by level draining.

As a Main Hand weapon? Sure. As an Off Hand weapon? No way.[/QB]

Then why not look at the other valid candidates? Crom Faeyr, Defender of Easthaven, Purifier, etc... ...

[Alson]

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Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: That is not true. Only the Bosses do such things. Run of the mill Mages do memorise their spells. Besides, Level Drain also means less HP, worse THACO, worse saving throws, and potential death by level draining.

Bosses, Mind Flayers, Dragons, Beholders, Demons, etc...
Note that I did not said "Mages" or "Clerics" - i said "spellcasters".
The Dragon's Wing Buffet, the Elder Orb's Imprisonment, the Flayer's Psionics or the Demon's Gazes - they are all scripted. Level Drain will not effect them.

Less HP, THAC0, Saving Throws? By what, 1? 2?

Death by Level Draining? Since you're so good at math, calculate this for me:
A normal Demon/Flayer/Beholder, level 9:
15% * 15% * 15% * 15% * 15% * 15% * 15% * 15% * 15% = ...

[qb]Then why not look at the other valid candidates? Crom Faeyr, Defender of Easthaven, Purifier, etc...[qb]

You're right.
That's why I specifically wrote: Of course, its not the Crom Faeyr's +14 THAC0 bonus - but you can always give Crom to your other party members! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-23-2002, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: Alson ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

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Bosses, Mind Flayers, Dragons, Beholders, Demons, etc... Note that I did not said "Mages" or "Clerics" - i said "spellcasters". The Dragon's Wing Buffet, the Elder Orb's Imprisonment, the Flayer's Psionics or the Demon's Gazes - they are all scripted. Level Drain will not effect them. Less HP, THAC0, Saving Throws? By what, 1? 2? Death by Level Draining? Since you're so good at math, calculate this for me: A normal Demon/Flayer/Beholder, level 9: 15% * 15% * 15% * 15% * 15% * 15% * 15% * 15% * 15% = ... QED.

Unless those monsters roll 1d2 for their HitDices, I assure you, it is more than -1, -2 HP. -1 THACO means a lot to them, because their THACO is not as fantastic as the player's characters. Not to mention their saving throws.

As for the latter, I said "potential" death by level-draining. If you want almost-guaranteed death by level-draining, use the Sword of Grief. Take heed also that level drain is PERMANENT, so the longer you fight... the weaker the enemy becomes. It is a very good weapon in prolonged battles.

You're right. That's why I specifically wrote: Of course, its not the Crom Faeyr's +14 THAC0 bonus - but you can always give Crom to your other party members! [img]smile.gif[/img]

I think my other party members wants their DoE and/or Purifier. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Foebane + Purifier, a classic combination
Flail of Ages + Crom Faeyr( or the DoE), the most brutal
Celestial Fury + Belm( or the DoE, or Dak'kon Zerth Blade), a stunning pair
Axe of Unyielding + Runehammer
Etc... ...

How many parties do you know of that have more than 3-4 Dualwielders?

Perhaps if all 6 were dualwielders. Although that would be an extreme case. [img]smile.gif[/img] At best, the Equaliser is a "for-now" weapon, but it will eventually be replaced.

[Alson]

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Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Unless those monsters roll 1d2 for their HitDices, I assure you, it is more than -1, -2 HP. -1 THACO means a lot to them, because their THACO is not as fantastic as the player's characters. Not to mention their saving throws.

Once they are > level 9, it is usually 1 - 3 HP.
And even if they are <= level 9 - it is usually 5-6 HP. Boho.

15% of -1 THAC0 and Saves?
Greater Malison and Slow is a TAD better.

I think my other party members wants their DoE and/or Purifier. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Foebane + Purifier, a classic combination Flail of Ages + Crom Faeyr( or the DoE), the most brutal Celestial Fury + Belm( or the DoE, or Dak'kon Zerth Blade), a stunning pair Axe of Unyielding + Runehammer Etc... ...

The Equalizer is a better off hand weapon than Belm. Think about it - with most weapons, Main Hands attacks X times + 18 damage > Main Hand attacks X+1 times.

The Equalizer is also a much better off hand weapon than Runehammer.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Alson: ToB Items Spoiler * * * * * * * * * Once they are > level 9, it is usually 1 - 3 HP. And even if they are <= level 9 - it is usually 5-6 HP. Boho. 15% of -1 THAC0 and Saves? Greater Malison and Slow is a TAD better.

Greater Malison and Slow makes it better. Heck, they make everything better. [img]tongue.gif[/img] And you will be disappointed to know that monsters do not follow the rules that characters follow for levelling up, unless they are valid playable characters, like Drow or Humans. Monsters like Beholders, Dragons, Mind Flayers, etc... will suffer badly in the HP department. The majority of monsters roll d8 HitDices, so it will an additional pinch of -8 HP plus other detrimental effects.

The Equalizer is a better off hand weapon than Belm. Think about it - with most weapons, Main Hands attacks X times + 18 damage > Main Hand attacks X+1 times. The Equalizer is also a much better off hand weapon than Runehammer.

I thought we confirmed that (FoA + Belm) > (FoA + CrF)? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I suppose the Equaliser is better than the Runehammer against non-Undead, but for Undead foes, Runehammer will win. So I guess it is a "depends" scenerio.

[ 11-23-2002, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

[Alson]

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Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Greater Malison and Slow makes it better. Heck, they make everything better. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

An agreement, finally.

And you will be disappointed to know that monsters do not follow the rules that characters follow for levelling up, unless they are valid playable characters, like Drow or Humans. Monsters like Beholders, Dragons, Mind Flayers, etc... will suffer badly in the HP department. The majority of monsters roll d8 HitDices, so it will an additional pinch of -8 HP plus other detrimental effects.

Disappointed, no.
Surprised, yes.

Are you sure on this?

quote: The Equalizer is a better off hand weapon than Belm. Think about it - with most weapons, Main Hands attacks X times + 18 damage > Main Hand attacks X+1 times. The Equalizer is also a much better off hand weapon than Runehammer.

I thought we confirmed that (FoA + Belm) > (FoA + CrF)? [img]tongue.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]I knew you'll say that. [img]smile.gif[/img]
That's why i've said most weapons - the FoA+5 average damage is 19.5, which makes him an exception, because his average damage is bigger then the Equalizer +18 bonus. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Most weapons' average damage, however, is < 18, so they will fit this catagory.
And lets not forget that Belm is useless, and actually harmful, if one is using GWW.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Alson: ToB Items Spoiler * * * * * * * * * Disappointed, no. Surprised, yes. Are you sure on this?

That is how Dragons get to have so much HP. [img]tongue.gif[/img] They roll like 20d10 HitDices. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I knew you'll say that. [img]smile.gif[/img] That's why i've said most weapons - the FoA+5 average damage is 19.5, which makes him an exception, because his average damage is bigger then the Equalizer +18 bonus. [img]smile.gif[/img] Most weapons' average damage, however, is < 18, so they will fit this catagory. And lets not forget that Belm is useless, and actually harmful, if one is using GWW.

The only way to settle this is through calculations. Sleep time for me now, but I will try and see whether I have time tomorrow to sit down and crunch the numbers.

I plan to compare the following,

FoA +5 and CrF +5
FoA +5 and Eq +3

Do you have any other pairs in mind?