Does ANYONE have trouble beating the last of the Five?

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Link: Six, you're spouting rubbish and you know it.

Nonsense. I do spout rubbish sometimes, but as soon as I realize that I shut up.

I understand that you believe another band of powerful followers is rubbish, but I think Balthazar actually has the best revenue so far to actually have a band of powerful followers.

Okay, now I'm going to be blunt and say that's nonsense. Balthazar should actually be dirt poor. I'll go case-by-case here.
Gromnir: He may have accumulated a sizable fortune by adventuring (the PC certainly did), and the items he and his cronies carry back this up. But do you know what happen to the economy in a besieged town? 30 gold pieces for a loaf of bread? Of course, he keeps the cash flow going by having his goons shake the citizens down to their last coin, so Gromnir & Co. were likely rather flush.
Yaga-Shura: His Fire Giants would have followed out of loyalty, but he'd have to pay everyone else. Happily, armies typically subsist on the plunder they get from sacking towns--and as Saradush was a rich prize, Yaga can hire even more recruits.
Sendai: Her Drow will follow her into the Gates of Hell if need be, out of a combination of loyalty to their race and the desire to be in good standing with the next Lady of Murder. Her slaves will fight to the death because no matter what the party might do to them, it's a lot more pleasant than tentacle rods. Her spiders will fight to the death because they have no thought of doing otherwise. Sendai doesn't even need money.
Abazigal: Ditto. Dragons, maybe even those of different subspecies, would put aside their differences to follow one who is certain (since no Bhaalspawn of any other race could hope to prove superior to a Dragon) to ascend to the Throne of Bhaal. Of course, it's those who are closest to him would would be most willing to put their lives on the line. Again, money is not even an issue. As for the Kou-Toa and Water Elementals, though, I think that was just BioWare running out of ideas. (Somebody want to explain to me why Kou-Toans are always found near Dragons?)
Balthazar: Well, this isn't your typical monastery, but the fact that your typical monastery is full of people who have taken a vow of poverty is at least worth a mention. Add to this the fact that isolated desert communities are not known for their thriving economies, unless they are the source of some commodity that they export--no such system for Amkethran is mentioned. Yet Balthazar must have spent a fortune on these dozens of Mercenaries that wear golden helmets and Chain+3, parading around town and going to the tavern. These men never go out and make conquests anywhere else, and the gold to be had from bullying the townsfolk is surely laughable if half of them can't afford food. The only apparent source of income that Balthzar himself has is when his Monks try to confiscate the Smugglers' goods. Perhaps Infinite Wealth is one of his Bhaal powers, because he sure as hell needs it.

"Using it does not equal giving in to it"? That's a really poor excuse, Six. "Oh I'm sorry Obi-Wan Kenobi, but I accidently tried to choke you!" - "~gurgle~" But of course that does not mean I'm succumbing to the Dark Side!!"

If I'd spoken of Balthazar using Slayer Change, or Hand of Murder, or Poison, or Assassination, or whatnot, your analogy would be accurate. But I specifically stated that he would NOT do such things, I spoke of abilities that had no apprent Evil in them at all. And, as I said, to not "use" the taint at all is to cease to live, both because it's impossible to turn your back on your soul and because Balthazar's a lousy fight already.

Would Balthazar resort to violence, simply because "in the end, he has real good intentions"? Of course not! It would jeopardise his plan to rid Faerun of Bhaal's essence once and for all. For all Balthazar knows, the power that's released because of your death will overcome him.

Wrong. If Balthazar trained his entire life to be ready for this moment, if he exhausted the coffers of his little town to try to get the PC killed, if he knows the entire portfolio of a god hangs in the balance, then he'd have to be either absolutely insane or the Gods' own fool to not lift a finger to save himself and work for what he sees is the greater good. "Jeopardize his plan?" Not at all, at least according to what he knows: Kill the last Bhaalchild except for Self, kill Self, no one left to claim the powers. As for Bhaal reawakening insode Balthazar before he could perform the ritual suicide, I think it perfectly in character for Balthazar to have had a Geas placed on himself, ensuring that if he ever became Lord of Murder or lost full control of his mental faculties due to divine interference, he would die.

The essence of Bhaal may be in every one of his siblings, but is it not true that the essence is awakened by your actions, by what the PC does? The ability to control your powers, your Slayer Change, your Pocket Plane: all comes through more and more experience with your soul, with using the powers that came with Bhaal's essence.

Although people are singing praises and are hailing you in as the world's number one hero, you still have blood on your hands. The blood of many.

Death does not always equal murder, and even murder is not always a bad thing. Can anyone actually feel quilty for having killed such people as Bodhi, Neb, Rejiek Hidesman, the Shade Lord, every random Kobold who turns Hostile on sight, etc., etc., etc. Yeah, your hands are red with blood. And how, exactly, does that necessarily make you a bad person?

[Link]

Hear hear, a very good refutal of my points. I see where you're going now, and I think I'm starting to like the idea. The whole "revenue"-thing had you pondering for a moment (and I admit tthat it sounds somewhat stupid as I read it again), but that was not what I meant. So yes, it was rubbish [img]smile.gif[/img]

What I meant was that Balthazar has a good reason for having a bunch of powerful cronies up in his monastory. Revenue was just another (failed) attempt from my side to sound more important and more acquaint with the English language than I in fact am. Balthazar is indeed the least of the Five who could actually pay an army.
But Balthazar's background story would be good enough for a bunch of powerful followers. Tackling him should be hard, otherwise he could've been assaulted by any one of the Five before his suicidal plan could've gone through. So he needs some decent protection, not some sorry-ass monks who cannot even bitch-slap a Kobold Shaman.
Sendai would indeed have her drow warriors hunting you down, but she wouldn't have a specific task-force of specially trained attackers to take you down, as she herself ("Onyx ring") is powerful enough already. Gromnir? Well, it's a given fact that anyone who wants to oppress a city is bound to walk into resistance. A garrison full of decent soldiers is a big help when it comes to that, but again: no special people needed (apart from the mage on the walls). Abazigal least of all needs a special ops being the half-dragon that he is, and the background story for Yaga-Shura (Nyalee, safeguarding someone's heart) is good enough to just have nameless soldiers assisting you as well.

All in all, my view on the matter is that Balthazar would actually be the only one of the Five to deserve a gang of named enemies who are willing to save his hide.

=====

I admit that Balthazar would resort to some protection if the need was dire, and we agree on the fact that he wouldn't use any of the darker powers of Bhaal (although the ones you mention are Ascension powers, right?). However, I think some sort of "halfway to death"-speech would surely add more to the inner conflict that Balthazar would feel at that moment, maybe at that time opening up the possibility to persuade him in aiding you in the final fight against Amelyssan:

Balthazar
"No! This can't be! You cannot win this fight, ! Too much is at stake!"


1) "No need to grovel now, Balthazar. After I've dealt with you, there will be no stopping me ascending the Throne of my father and assume his title as the Lord of Murder!" (evil)
2) "It's me or you, Balthazar. And frankly speaking, I think I prefer life over death." (neutral)
3) "I have to win this fight, Balthazar! Can't you see? Can't you feel it? You must know it too, just as well as I do! We have to stop this madness, together if need be!" (good)

Okay, I admit, this is just a hasty draft of what I'm thinking of (and I don't remember quite that well if you know about Amelyssan at that point), but it gives you a basic picture.

====

How about all the people you've killed that didn't deserve death? The entire guild-hall of Mae'var for instance? The beastmaster of the Copper Coronet? You yourself say it: murder is not always a bad thing. That does not mean murder is always a good thing. There's two sides to each medallion, Six [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-19-2005, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: Link ]

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Well, you've given bad examples, Link. The Shadow Thieves under Mae'Var were party to torture and intimidation of the locals. If they slip up, they get killed. And they slipped up. Ditto for the beastmaster... He was aiding the imprisonment and severe mistreatment of animals and slaves... Come to think of it, I'm hard-pressed to find an instance of when a good-aligned character needs to kill someone who doesn't have it coming to them.

[Link]

Hmpf, don't agree with you. Mae'Var may have been a rotten egg amongst the thieves, the only reason you slaughtered his entire guildhall is that Renal thought him to be a threat to his own position.

The beastmaster was, indeed, a bad example. I was under the impression that he only attacked you for killing Tabitha, but then I realised they attack anyway.

[Dundee Slaytern]

The Paladins in Windspear Hills.

The Cowled Wizard Edwin wanted dead.

Valgar's friends( if you accepted the quest to find him).

The Oasis.

Etc...

[Neo the Warrior Cat]

Though perhaps the Cowled Wizard is a bit of a poor example, seeing as that group is rather shady at best. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

And you don't need to kill all of the thieves, anyway. You can just waltz in the back door. You can run from the Oasis (It would be wrong to kill them), and while it wasn't good to kill the paladins, they attacked you and you killed them in self-defense. You don't need to fight Valygar's friends.

[Sir Goulum]

The paladins aren't a great example, seeing how each thought the others were Ogre's and such.

[Dundee Slaytern]

I was responding to this part of the statement,

~ who doesn't have it coming to them.

Justifications can always be made by the victor. The winner after all, is always right.

[Dalamar Stormcrow]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: I was responding to this part of the statement, quote: ~ who doesn't have it coming to them.

Justifications can always be made by the victor. The winner after all, is always right. [/QUOTE]Quiet Dundee! This thread is no place for contemplation! [img]tongue.gif[/img]