Personal safety issues and my recent experience

[Lord of Alcohol]

Mini-14, 40 round magazine, bang bang bang

[Epona]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sir Taliesin:

To those of you in England and Oz, why is self-defense not a reason to hurt someone that was trying to HURT YOU in the first place? I'm sorry, but I don't understand that.

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Because the aim is not to hurt that person - it is to stop them hurting you. If you can escape without harming them then that is what should happen, if not, then go ahead.

Revenge is no way to live your life, and hurting someone because you seek revenge will eat you up (the path to the dark side of the force, LOL). Justice is taken through the courts as a legal process, and it is not my place to be judge, jury and executioner.
My attacker fled when I screamed. I would have hit him on the head with a ceramic lamp if screaming hadn't worked - but if I had a gun maybe I would have killed him before screaming. Taking a life, unless there is *no* other option is wrong. Allowing people this option (by allowing them to carry a lethal weapon) is also wrong.

Sorry, I was going to stay off the subject in this thread, but you *did* ask.

[Cloudbringer]

quote:

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Originally posted by Epona:
Living in England, it is illegal to carry a gun or a knife with a blade longer than 3 inches, mace and pepper spray is illegal too, so bear in mind when you give out advice to carry a gun or arm yourself that it doesn't apply to all of us!

OK, so the whys and wherefores are for a different discussion, true, but I felt that pointing out that fact was relevant to this thread, since I have to rely on my lungs, screamers, and self defence.

I am going to relate something which happened to me, several years ago.

I was away on business, and to save on my expenses I booked a room in a small guesthouse because it was cheaper than a hotel with a reception desk etc. I had a few drinks with my work colleagues, went back to my guesthouse alone, and went to sleep. I had the most horrendous dream. There was demonic whispering, and in my dream was one of my friends who kept saying to me 'you have to fight, be ready'. I woke up in a cold sweat, to a room that was pitch dark.

I lay in the bed, calming down from my bad dream. My eyes started to adjust to the darkness - and I realised that I was looking up into a man's face. There was a man standing beside my bed I froze, absolutely rigid with fear - I couldn't even think. It didn't help that I usually sleep naked, I felt very exposed. He started to climb onto the bed. At that moment, realising what was about to happen, my fear was broken. I grabbed for the bedside lamp (figuring I could either turn it on or bash him with it) and started to scream my lungs out. The man fled. I was hoarse for 3 days, and it took me maybe 3 years to be able to sleep with the lights off. I still check that I locked the door at least 10 times before I go to bed at night.

There are a few pointers that I have learned about from this:

Trust your instincts: If a situation feels wrong, it probably *is* wrong. My dream was a warning to me, even while asleep I could sense that all was not well.

Lock your doors, and fit secure locks: Seems obvious, doesn't it? Well it wasn't to me that night, the door was locked, but the catch on the frame was loose. After that I bought a device which can be used to lock a door from the inside - it can be easily knocked away in the event of fire.

Carry an umbrella: Sounds daft, but attackers are looking for people with no defense - just holding a brolly will make an opportunist think twice and look for an easier target.

Be aware: Don't use a personal stereo - music is nice, but you can't hear footsteps behind you.

Carry an alarm: a good deterrent

If attacked:
Go for vulnerable areas - the eyes, throat and groin. Use your thumb to jab in the eyes, the tips of your fingers with your hand held rigid to 'stab' at the adams apple, and bring your fist up into the groin. Stamp on feet, but don't try to knee your attacker in the groin - having one foot off the ground makes you vulnerable and unbalanced. Scream as loudly as you can - yelling 'FIRE' is better because it will attract an eager audience, whereas not everyone is brave enough to get involved in a personal attack.
Another good place to go for is the muscle on the underarm between armpit and elbow - just grab, pinch and twist. If you don't believe me, just pinch yourself in that area - it is very tender.

Cloudy, I'm glad you're OK. Very scary.

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Epona, thank you! That is one very scary incident but I am glad you kept your presence of mind enough to scream AND grab that lamp! I had a similar occurence but the guy was a mentally handicapped handyman for my apartment complex. I think he just watched me sleep, but it was creepy. I went out and had a locksmith put a deadbolt on my door and I did NOT give my apartment manager's office a copy!!

Your suggestions for what to do to prevent/stop an attack are some I've heard from safety experts. They always caution that no ONE method should be over relied on. But to practice several, and awareness of your surroundings is one of the most important.

Your comment on the locks... YES! You'd be surprised how many people don't bother or don't think about it! HA... even when I built my house, the contractor didn't understand why I was willing to pay and insisted on having a deadbolt on my BACK door in addition to the one on the front door which was part of the standard package. Just think about that.... why deadbolt only ONE entrance if you have TWO? But he took it for granted that was the way to do it. He thought I was being paranoid! Sheesh!


Scronan: Your points on being aware and reacting without having to think are excellent. I think one thing Nachtrafe touched on is the training.. the idea being that you react instinctively, without having to think too much and lose the advantage.

edit: I liked this part of your post too.

quote:

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I'm not trying to scare anyone here, just sharing a little food for thought. That's why I always say, have LOTS of techniques you can call upon, not just two or three. But it only takes one move used properly in the right situation to work for you, and this may something different for everyone.

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It's pretty good advice, along witht the idea of doing WHATEVER it takes, not just planned MA moves or any 'move' in particular.


Cloudy

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

[Sir Taliesin]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Epona:


Because the aim is not to hurt that person - it is to stop them hurting you. If you can escape without harming them then that is what should happen, if not, then go ahead.

Revenge is no way to live your life, and hurting someone because you seek revenge will eat you up (the path to the dark side of the force, LOL). Justice is taken through the courts as a legal process, and it is not my place to be judge, jury and executioner.
My attacker fled when I screamed. I would have hit him on the head with a ceramic lamp if screaming hadn't worked - but if I had a gun maybe I would have killed him before screaming. Taking a life, unless there is *no* other option is wrong. Allowing people this option (by allowing them to carry a lethal weapon) is also wrong.

Sorry, I was going to stay off the subject in this thread, but you *did* ask.

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I wasn't talking about revenge, just self-defense. I understood english law forbides someone from even defending themselves with NON-LETHAL means. If you where walking down the street and another woman came up and started hitting on you for no apparent reason other than to cause you bodily harm, do you under the British system have the right to hit back or do you have to run away? What if she continues to pursue you down the street. Can you turn and face her or do you simply have to keep running because you have an escape route. If the intruder that entered your room hadn't stopped and you brained him over the head and killed him with the lamp, even though you intended no permement harm, could you be tried for murder or man-slaughter? Are you expected to just lay there and take it? I am not flaming, just trying to understand.

We don't condone revenge here in the states either, just a right to self-defense. That is two different things in the eyes of the law.
If a woman is being raped, and she has to use lethal force to stop that rape then that's OK. If that same woman was raped and then she killed her rapist on the street two weeks later then she has committed murder in the eyes of the law. The law is quite clear about the use of self-defense in my state. You can only use lethal force if YOU or ANOTHER is in FEAR of THEIR LIFE. In this state burgerly isn't a reason to use lethal force; however the if the burgler is waving a knife around and trying to stab you, you may use lethal force. Even assualt isn't a grounds to use lethal force. You must PROVE that you were in fear of your life.

Having said that, there are cases in this country that self-defense got someone off on murder that I don't agree with. Case in point.
About fifteen years ago a young man was shot in the back and killed, because he was a peeping tom. The home owner pleaded self-defense and the Grand Jury (made up of citizens in our city) refused to return and indictment of the home owner. I didn't agree with that then and I don't now. The young man that was killed was shot in the back. He was running away and a threat to no one. That doesn't happen here often, but it can happen. I'd have had the home owner tried in court for murder, personally. That's an opinion that isn't too popular arond here. I also still feel strongly about the right to bear arms and a right to self-defense.

To those of you that finished this long and sometimes rambling post, THANK YOU! Epona I'm asking again! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[nick1979]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sir Taliesin:



I wasn't talking about revenge, just self-defense. I understood english law forbides someone from even defending themselves with NON-LETHAL means. If you where walking down the street and another woman came up and started hitting on you for no apparent reason other than to cause you bodily harm, do you under the British system have the right to hit back or do you have to run away? What if she continues to pursue you down the street. Can you turn and face her or do you simply have to keep running because you have an escape route. If the intruder that entered your room hadn't stopped and you brained him over the head and killed him with the lamp, even though you intended no permement harm, could you be tried for murder or man-slaughter? Are you expected to just lay there and take it? I am not flaming, just trying to understand.

We don't condone revenge here in the states either, just a right to self-defense. That is two different things in the eyes of the law.
If a woman is being raped, and she has to use lethal force to stop that rape then that's OK. If that same woman was raped and then she killed her rapist on the street two weeks later then she has committed murder in the eyes of the law. The law is quite clear about the use of self-defense in my state. You can only use lethal force if YOU or ANOTHER is in FEAR of THEIR LIFE. In this state burgerly isn't a reason to use lethal force; however the if the burgler is waving a knife around and trying to stab you, you may use lethal force. Even assualt isn't a grounds to use lethal force. You must PROVE that you were in fear of your life.

Having said that, there are cases in this country that self-defense got someone off on murder that I don't agree with. Case in point.
About fifteen years ago a young man was shot in the back and killed, because he was a peeping tom. The home owner pleaded self-defense and the Grand Jury (made up of citizens in our city) refused to return and indictment of the home owner. I didn't agree with that then and I don't now. The young man that was killed was shot in the back. He was running away and a threat to no one. That doesn't happen here often, but it can happen. I'd have had the home owner tried in court for murder, personally. That's an opinion that isn't too popular arond here. I also still feel strongly about the right to bear arms and a right to self-defense.

To those of you that finished this long and sometimes rambling post, THANK YOU! Epona I'm asking again! [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Well Said!

[Nachtrafe]

Thanks for the comments everyone. Scronan...you and I must talk. [img]smile.gif[/img] I too am a Taoist. Would love to philosophize with you sometime. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Epona...Wow...I'm glad you are all right. That must have been a hideous experience. *HUGS* You are 100% right...Trust your instincts. They can and will save you.

One thing I feel that I should add, and I apologize for not adding it to my other posts. I feel more than a bit irresponsible for not putting it in. In regards to handguns. If you do decide to carry one, GET TRAINING!! It will save your life. A gun in untrained hands is infinitly more dangerous to the person holding it. One of the things I did was go to my local gun club and sign up for their 'Home Defense Course'. It was three days of the most intense handgun training I have ever experienced. It basically trained the proper reactions into me. It helped train my awareness of just how awful a thing I was carrying, and what it could do to my fellow human beings. And it gave me the ability to react properly when my life was threatened.

I have been around guns my whole life. I have hunted many different kinds of animals(to eat...I HATE(HATE HATE HATE!!!!!!) trophy hunters) and been to the shooting range since I was a kid. I always carry my pistol when I'm camping. I have come on animals that are wounded and need to be put out of their misery, and, for that matter, I have had the same experience in my car. I was once travelling to a party with some friends, and we hit a dog. We called the animal shelter but they wouldn't come out because it was after hours. I didn't have my gun, so I had to watch this poor animal die under my hands. If I had had my gun... Anyway...point is, I have a lot of experience with guns. But, until I took that course, I dont know if I could have used said gun properly when the situation arose. After the course, I KNEW! I reacted as I was trained to. I panicked afterwards.

And, I have to disagree with a couple of others on this topic. Guns are *NOT* for everyone. Even in the US, where they are legal. Not everyone has the proper temperment. Not everyone is capable of looking down the barrel at another human being and pulling the trigger. If you are not 500% sure(and I mean surety, not arrogance or posturing) that you can handle it, then dont even bother to buy one. It will be a million times more deadly for you than the guy its aimed at.

I am a staunch gun advocate, but I truly hope I never ever have to pull my gun EVER AGAIN. That's not to say that I wouldn't...I just hope I never have to.

So...gun lecture over. [img]smile.gif[/img]

As far as self defense goes...I dont think it can be stressed enough...ATTITUDE, AWARENESS, PREPAREDNESS. Without those three things, you are a victim. Hell...sometimes even with those things, you are a victim. There are just some situations that cannot be gotten out of. But a little of the above can increase your chances of survival a thousandfold.

Its a sick sad world we live in sometimes. There are some truly messed up people out there. I dont know if anything I have said helps, but I hope it at least makes you think. And, next time you're walking to your car, in the middle of the night, in a dark parking garage, stop for just a second and *LISTEN*. Pay attention, and it can just save you.

[Nachtrafe]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Epona:


Because the aim is not to hurt that person - it is to stop them hurting you. If you can escape without harming them then that is what should happen, if not, then go ahead.

Revenge is no way to live your life, and hurting someone because you seek revenge will eat you up (the path to the dark side of the force, LOL). Justice is taken through the courts as a legal process, and it is not my place to be judge, jury and executioner.
My attacker fled when I screamed. I would have hit him on the head with a ceramic lamp if screaming hadn't worked - but if I had a gun maybe I would have killed him before screaming. Taking a life, unless there is *no* other option is wrong. Allowing people this option (by allowing them to carry a lethal weapon) is also wrong.

Sorry, I was going to stay off the subject in this thread, but you *did* ask.

---

Good points. Like Scronan, I'm a taoist...well...kind of a militant taoist...but still. And hurting/killing someone is ALWAYS the last option. But, if it is the option that you have to take...DONT HESITATE. Epona...I appreciate your stance on guns, but, obviously, I disagree. Moral quandries generally take a back seat to pure survival. If I am in a life threatening situation, and the only way out is to kill someone else...they're dead. End of story. And I dont want to have to get up close and personal to do it. I can, and will use my gun. But as I said...I, personally, have only ever been in that situation once, and I hope with all my heart that I am never in that situation again. Most of the unpleasant situations in my life have generally been resolved with attitude(well...being 6'3 300+ doesn't hurt), and, if necessary, my fists. Violence is not the best option, but, if it has to happen, I, personally, would prefer to have the most efficient means available.

LoA...Colt .45, 14 round clip, underbarrel red-dot.

[Nachtrafe]

Talesin...Good points all. I guess I doubled up on some of what you said(I didn't read to the end before I posted...shame on me [img]smile.gif[/img] ). And, I totally agree about that home owner. That's murder, pure and simple.

[nick1979]

quote:

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Originally posted by Nachtrafe:
Thanks for the comments everyone. Scronan...you and I must talk. [img]smile.gif[/img] I too am a Taoist. Would love to philosophize with you sometime. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Epona...Wow...I'm glad you are all right. That must have been a hideous experience. *HUGS* You are 100% right...Trust your instincts. They can and will save you.

One thing I feel that I should add, and I apologize for not adding it to my other posts. I feel more than a bit irresponsible for not putting it in. In regards to handguns. If you do decide to carry one, GET TRAINING!! It will save your life. A gun in untrained hands is infinitly more dangerous to the person holding it. One of the things I did was go to my local gun club and sign up for their 'Home Defense Course'. It was three days of the most intense handgun training I have ever experienced. It basically trained the proper reactions into me. It helped train my awareness of just how awful a thing I was carrying, and what it could do to my fellow human beings. And it gave me the ability to react properly when my life was threatened.

I have been around guns my whole life. I have hunted many different kinds of animals(to eat...I HATE(HATE HATE HATE!!!!!!) trophy hunters) and been to the shooting range since I was a kid. I always carry my pistol when I'm camping. I have come on animals that are wounded and need to be put out of their misery, and, for that matter, I have had the same experience in my car. I was once travelling to a party with some friends, and we hit a dog. We called the animal shelter but they wouldn't come out because it was after hours. I didn't have my gun, so I had to watch this poor animal die under my hands. If I had had my gun... Anyway...point is, I have a lot of experience with guns. But, until I took that course, I dont know if I could have used said gun properly when the situation arose. After the course, I KNEW! I reacted as I was trained to. I panicked afterwards.

And, I have to disagree with a couple of others on this topic. Guns are *NOT* for everyone. Even in the US, where they are legal. Not everyone has the proper temperment. Not everyone is capable of looking down the barrel at another human being and pulling the trigger. If you are not 500% sure(and I mean surety, not arrogance or posturing) that you can handle it, then dont even bother to buy one. It will be a million times more deadly for you than the guy its aimed at.

I am a staunch gun advocate, but I truly hope I never ever have to pull my gun EVER AGAIN. That's not to say that I wouldn't...I just hope I never have to.

So...gun lecture over. [img]smile.gif[/img]

As far as self defense goes...I dont think it can be stressed enough...ATTITUDE, AWARENESS, PREPAREDNESS. Without those three things, you are a victim. Hell...sometimes even with those things, you are a victim. There are just some situations that cannot be gotten out of. But a little of the above can increase your chances of survival a thousandfold.

Its a sick sad world we live in sometimes. There are some truly messed up people out there. I dont know if anything I have said helps, but I hope it at least makes you think. And, next time you're walking to your car, in the middle of the night, in a dark parking garage, stop for just a second and *LISTEN*. Pay attention, and it can just save you.

---

Great point!
Training and practice are a must!

[Ladyzekke]

Well I guess I've been lucky and haven't had too many scary incidences in my life. I do remember one though, although it no way compares to others that posted here.

I used to take the subway to work. Would walk from my apartment to the subway station. This one morning, I was walking towards the subway entrance, which is this really long glass domed tunnel (it is built over a highway at that point). As I was approaching this tunnel to enter, I noticed this man walking in the opposite direction, was leaving the tunnel. He walked a good 40 feet out of the tunnel by the time the two of us passed eachother. He kinda turned his head and stared at me, was kinda creepy. Well, when I got to the tunnel entrance, I kinda looked back and saw him there! He wasn't close, about 15 feet away from me at the time, but I'm thinking in my head "he was just leaving the subway though wasn't he?". Well I wasn't sure what to think, but just remember that I only weigh about 90lbs, and hey, if I were a mugger or a robber or something, I would consider myself an easy target. So all of this is going through my head as I'm walking down the tunnel. I slide my ticket through the turnstile and get to the top of the escalator that leads down to the trains. I notice the train has just arrived and I only have so many seconds to get aboard it before it takes off (next train doesn't come for 20 minutes). So I decide to run, and bolt down the escalator, run like the frikken wind, and BARELY make it. I swear I jumped onboard and a second later the doors shut behind me! Well it was crowded on the train, but I found this one empty seat facing backwards, so I took it. After I put my bag on the floor I look up in front of me, and guess what? That same guy was onboard, standing in the doorway holding onto one of the poles. All I could think was "shite, he had to have been literally inches behind me to have made it on this train!" Well soon my stop is coming up and I'm thinking "what am I going to do if I get off and he still follows?" So this is what I decided: My stop came, the doors opened, passengers went out, I waited until the last possible minute, sitting in my seat looking like I was enthralled with the book in my hands, and just bolted and ran out! No way anyone could have followed me, not without looking completely Obvious.

Still don't know if I truly was in danger or not. Maybe the dude was confused and left the subway just to decide to go back in and, err, use it and err go somewhere, and wasn't really following me. But dunno. I just felt it was better to be safe than sorry.