Thoughts of a contemporary Athiest...

John, I have a question. If God is what gives humans their morals, then why do people's morals differ? Surely, these morals would be set in stone if they were imprinted by God.

free will

[Leonis]

This is really interesting. Why has no one of faith in no God, apart from Hunter of Jahanna, stated why they have morals/ethics, where they came from and what possible purpose they could serve?
All I'm hearing is that you don't need a god for these; fair enough, but the forum is wide open to state your reasoning, to put on display the whys of your morals and ethics.

I'm also intrigued by this definition of agnostic:

agnos´tisizem) , form of skepticism that holds that the existence of God cannot be logically proved or disproved.

I fully agree with this. I'm skeptical of religions and belief in God. I couldn't be comfortable in my belief in God if I wasn't skeptical of it. Skepticism is a wise way of thinking. I haven't seen any logical way of proving or disproving God either. But this is where I deviate from the term 'agnostic' in it's literal sense. I have sought proof and found it, in the gnostic, the metaphysical, the mystical which manifests itself through the physical.
Eg, I believe I have a soul, that my body is a temporary home for my spirit which is essentialy 'who I am'. This cannot be proven or disproven in any logical or physical way, but is something that I, a skeptic, have absolute trust in.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Aviendha: John, I have a question. If God is what gives humans their morals, then why do people's morals differ? Surely, these morals would be set in stone if they were imprinted by God.

Thanks Moni
Miss Aviendha ma'am,
It is the free will given to each of us to chose our own path. God doesn't give Mankind it's morals. God set the absolute for the morals of His creation, then gave each of us the right and the responsability to made our own choice.

I'm sure you've probibly seen the old posters about if you love something set it free and if it comes back to you it is yours if it doesn't it never was. There is alot of truth in that statement regarding God, His love, and His action towards Mankind. That is why the Church (not an orginaztion, or denomination, but true beleiversand followers of God through Christ) are called the "Called out". God has called out and His own have listened to Him, Those that have loved Him have come back to Him.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: I'm saying, what if we prove God wrong, can you still stand on your own 2 feet then? Which is my point, it's weak to not follow an adaptable set of rules, ones that pertain to themselves and a world that is constantly changing. Life doesn't have a 'real' meaning, only a perceived meaning. You could very well go ahead and murder some people, but God won't stop you, we will. And if God isn't there, we'll still find a proper way to deal with you. That is what our world is about, that is secular law. It's far from perfect as it stands, that is to say the specifics of legal code, but it still is the best we can do. Why exist for some promise of an absolute, when the guarantee is reality? A reality that you can't run from? There are those who have argued your point, and committed mass murder, and felt they got away with it as there was no absolute in their minds. If we did our best in bringing them to justice, then they HAVE been punished. The very nature of your arguement is exactly what allowed religion to get to power, stay in power, and strangle to still do so, in modern times.

Oblivion437,
You lost me there, it is either a world that is constantly changing and No absolutes, or an unchanging world with absolutes. You can't have a changing world with absolutes the two are mutualy exclusive. Unless you accept that there is a physical relm that changes and a Spiritual relm that is absolute, and I don't see how that can be acomplished without accepting the presence of a deity.

[theifprowess]

im sorry anyone and everyone who believes they have the right to think and not respect the rest of whats going on around them deserve to be called close-minded. some how NATURE has given man the right to think. therefor we are. i dont see it that way we are the same as ever other animal out there in the world. and we should start to act like them. cause at leats in their simple thinking they arent destroying the world and its inhabitants in its own self righteous ive been given the will to do so manner. the only true people who deserve any respect in the world for the way they felt nature was raped and pilaged from us very closedminded people who thought they were savages.

the sad thing is native americans still dont get any kind of respect they deserve. at least with them they felt for everything living it had its creator and for each was put on this earth for a purpose. they just never thought christians and catholic settlers from a far away land had common sense or indecincy to rape pilage and plunder the way they have.

man has set a moral set of codes to live by yet they dont follow them, supposedly set by god...... how did the indians do it? how is it men govererned under two complete different worlds and religion can turn out so different? hell early settlers even tried to convert the peacful indians to try and make them more civilized. one was intouch with nature and all its beauty, the other set in its distructive ways. gotta make all these hard line religion nuts in here wonder why i dont believe.

[Oblivion437]

There are no moral or 'spiritual' absolutes. Only physical absolutes. U-238 decays to halflife in 4.5 billion years, that's an absolute. Gravity is an absolute. Morality is a concept, and thus no absolutes in this area exist. Do you do something, and it feels good? Even though your god says it's bad? Do you do something and it feels bad? Even though your god says it's good? This was one reason, these moral objections to most religions I have drove me to agnosticism. Atheism is a leap of faith...If you haven't done your homework.

[Calaethis Dragonsbane]

I was under the 'dislution' that soicty based its laws on morals, correct me if im wrong ok? this is why its illege to go around kiling ppl, right? coz its wrong... what does that say to you?

[Calaethis Dragonsbane]

Aviendha; I have a question for you, by now you shoudl know me well enough to realise that I don't mean any offence; I would hope so anyway.

I know that you dont mean to attack other ppl's believes only, question them to better understand them. how can I put this... I think you're right when you say that Christians dont place enough empathis on evalution, but just because we 'evolved' (we may or may not have, this isnt the point Im raising) it doesnt mean we werent created, (or not as the case maybe, Im staying netural, and letting the reader decide) I believe that we WERE created, but not in the 'form' we are now, its hard to explain, let me try; a child developes into an adult right? why not the same thing with humans, and evaltuion? If we look at how we are now, to how we were several hundreds years ago, you will see vast differences, could it be, as the human race grows 'older', we become less 'childlike'? this would also fit in with the 'Story of Creation', because if you read that, you will find that the ppl in there seem very...innocent, almost childlike... Now look at US (as a race) we question things, look at our socity.

The point Im trying to make is, I dont disagree with evaltuion, but I dont think that enough empahis is placed on the fact that if we were created we have been 'allowed' to grow...

Another point,

I dont actually, (myself) believe in 'convestion'. I think that it is for ppl to decide themselevs, I was actuallly reading the bible last night, (something I rarely do) open a page at random, and read several pages about how small we actually are. Its a scary thought actually, thinking about how vast the universe is, we are like ants. (btw im not trying to convince anyone of anything I believe, only trying to put across my own point of view.)

Another question for you, (not from a 'Christian' point of view but) If you do believe in God, and have a chance at enteral life why would you not take it? All you are required is to admit God exists, and to 'appologise for your sins'. thats all. You have got absolutly nothing to lose, and it appears everything to gain. thats not quite how I intended it to come out, but whats done is done.

And about life 'having no purpose'... I'm not so sure... I see it more as a ...I dont know, test; in a way, an experience... but life is meant to be enjoyed, I see each day a live, as a gift from God, I could die any day, (tho whatever means) I also, only have to turn on the TV, and look to see how many other ppl DONT have the same chances that I do, I mean, so many live in poverty, Africa, India... Im not even going to begin to name them all... then I look at my own surroundings, and realise how easy Ive had it... it makes me almost ashamed... I also realsie that I could do a lot more to help, but I dont... then I look at poloticins (for example,) and see how much they squander, and how important theirs owns lives are to them... it seems.... pety. I dont know, there is a lot of 'wrong' out in the world.

oh Ive lost the point entirely, like I said before, I dont believe in convincing ppl to 'accept God', no-one can, or should, it is up to them... but why deny Him out of principle? it seems to me, that ppl should keep an open mind. like I said, no-one is forcing you, but maybe you should just 'look'. after all, if you decide God doesnt exist, you still havent lost anything, but if you find him... it could change your life.

[WOLFGIR]

Originally posted by Leonis: This is really interesting. Why has no one of faith in no God, apart from Hunter of Jahanna, stated why they have morals/ethics, where they came from and what possible purpose they could serve? All I'm hearing is that you don't need a god for these; fair enough, but the forum is wide open to state your reasoning, to put on display the whys of your morals and ethics. .

My reason why I have morales is that I like to live close to a neighbour that doesn´t try to kill me and doesn´t want to rape my chemical compond.. And by being a no threat to him I have made less enemies. Even the "savage" beasts pick their fights with care so sanity would be the obvious answer here. If I don´t rape people I think that I can live rather safe since even the godless have parents and friends, raping another person or killing would lead to more pointless deaths, you steal the person bereft of property will steal in his turn. We still have a preferd quality of life that we don´t want disturbed. Social realism ro whatever you might want to call it.

I belive in philosophical statements and proof of life if you like. Confucius is a nice source with treat others as you want to be treated. Most people do a twist of this, treat people as you are treated at least once in their lives.

What is right what is wrong? You learn as you live, my truth is not my neighbours truth. I try however to understand his truth so I can respect his, that way he will be more friendly towards my truth. Live and let live, life is full of it anyway, why add to the pains already out there?

Most of my basics I got from my parents, an upbringing teaching me to respect people and their choices of life but also to try and stand up for myself and avoid to be trampled on. Early deaths among friends to cancer, family problems, the fraility of life has ever sine made me the person I am. I have walked my path with excuses and praise alike. I try to do what I think is wright at the moment I have to choose. I try to have both eyes open on the path before.

Have I have need of a god? Well I did believe as young but I soon found out that for me, he was dead and probably me for him as well. The scientific "excuses" for life and us being here sounded as much reliable to the religious "excuses" so I choose that which fitted my way of life the best. If you find my way of calling it excuses, so be it, I still think that none of us knows, we all try to find the answer and for me living, I search every day without knowing, but none can tell me it, I have to find it for myself. Hence the term "excuse" cause that is what I se it as. I know it works for other people and I feel happy for thoose of you that have found your way in the light of a God. I sometimes even envy you, but here this as well. It is not for me.

When it comes down to proving this or that. See my proove your existence post. It is all fruitless if you don´t want to believe in the proofs.

Agnosticism is a very funny word since the first order that called themselves thought mankind had the wrong idea about who was god and who was the devil. They thought God was the father of lives, imprisoning us here so close to the sins of the flesh in a world of despair. If God loved us he would surely not do that? Well that was the agnostic ones..

Well alot of font and space for 2 cents.

[ 06-24-2002, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: WOLFGIR ]