Ignorant Bliss/Sad Knowledge - Page 5

WOLFGIR · 05-21-2001, 04:18 AM

Don´t forget that colors are also a "learnt behaviour". We learn how to define red at school, and thus we are "fed" the standard ideals of that, and later on we have to ask our selfes how to define color because it is mainly to your own mind you can refer. Orange and red are soewhat hard to tell if it choosen to be called red or orange at some state. We don´t go around and refer to colors using the CMYK print labels (well sometimes

but that is in work since you have to..)

Truth is mainly to your own ideals and decoded by your own perception and memory, thus there are maybe one truth, as a higher state, but then there are as mny shades to the truth as there are persons knowing about it.

it is a tough topic here Yorick (I didn´t expect less from you! You really tease the brains mate!!)

------------------

Yawning lazywolf..

Fljotsdale · 05-21-2001, 06:54 AM

Very good points you make there, Wolfgir!

Couldn't have put it better myself. Well - I didn't, lol! ROFL!

------------------

Moiraine · 05-21-2001, 08:42 AM

Ah, colors ...

It is true that any color is a scientifically measurable quantity. It is also true that the perception any living person or animal have of it is widely different from one to another ! Because between the color and the mind apply some natural and also cultural filters.

My son has a box full of mind tricks involving shapes and colors, along with their scientific explanation. Like a disk with stripes of colors, that is seen as full white when it rotates fast enough. There is even one of these tricks whose explanation astonished me : the mind does not understand the pattern, so you actually see something that has no relation at all with what is really there, but is entirely created out of the blue by your mind ! Like 'I don't understand this at all, so I guess it must be that ?'. The other amazing thing about it is - it seems that all of us (human French people anyway) have minds that build the SAME guess. I shall retrieve this one for you later.

My father doesn't see colors at all. Not red/green color-blind, but totally color-blind. This is a genetically transmitted anomaly, supposedly affecting only males (

). The weird thing is, his sister is also affected by it, so it seems that it runs strong in his family. My son though is not affected (you bet I had him tested as soon as possible !

).

Red/green color-blindness is different with 'true' colors and with colors on computer screens (If you are interested, I can retrieve the scientific explanation as well). So a true red/green color-blind person will see grass 'red' and blood 'green' in computer games. Playing BG II should be weird ! In fact, that's how my partner for the Engineer diploma discovered that he was red/green color-blind !

Some humans have weird associations in the brain between two separate feelings, which are 'hard-coded', I mean that they have been set very soon in life and can't be broken, they are physical links between two areas of the brain that don't usually relate. The most common of these 'associations' is between colors and, say, sound or letters. Some, rarer, are between smell and music, for example. I, for example, associate colors with vowels, always the same color with the same vowel, and by extension I associate colors with sounds, as musical notes are spelled 'Do-Re-Mi-Fa-Sol-La-Si' in French, very 'vowelly' words ! My son's piano teacher had the great idea to teach notes with colors, but as he doesn't use the same colors that those set in my brain, I can't remember his system !
Oh, and just in case you would be like my Mum and not believe me, these colors are NOT the ones in the book I learned to read with !

By extension, I associate colors with things and people, based mostly of the color of their 'name' given by its vowels !

In fact, when I started to read in English, I couldn't see the words in colors as I do in French, and I felt handicapped, as something allowing me to read faster was missing. I started to get the feeling that I read English fluently when I started feeling colors in text. Now you must think I am crazy ...

Color and its perception ...

------------------

The world is my oyster !
And now I have the knives to open it ...

[This message has been edited by Moiraine (edited 05-21-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Moiraine (edited 05-21-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Moiraine (edited 05-21-2001).]

WOLFGIR · 05-21-2001, 08:52 AM

Interesting Moiraine!!

I had hard to figure out notes when I played piano as little, I tried to memorize the different keys instead, and learned how to play it out of mind with the positions instead of notes or how it sounds..

i can tell you I´m a terrible piano "brutalizer"

.

I have had to use my "musical ear" to other things then to say that sounds right, this sounds bad, that I´m very good at, but nothing else..

I´m fairly good with colors, but I think that is because I have always wnated to be good with it, but I can´t say that "trainig" haven´t had anything to do with it.

So well, time to make a point here

Sorry, lost it, you have to live the rumblings once more!

------------------

Yawning lazywolf..

Yorick · 05-21-2001, 03:24 PM

Did you guys know I am a partial multi-sensate, as in certain musical sounds have certain colours for me. My music is very visual to me.

Got to go, bad connection at the now-closing cafe. V. interesting posts Moirain/Wolf/Fjlots. Talk soon.

Salut!

------------------
I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Fljotsdale · 05-21-2001, 06:04 PM

Darn it!

I enjoy arguing with Yorick!

------------------

Yorick · 05-22-2001, 05:59 AM

Well then Fjlotsdale, this is just for you

and maybe a little bit for Moiraine and Wolgir.....

Colour blindness is an abberration, not the norm. There is still little to indicate that we do not all see "red" instead of "blue", other than different receptors, which are little different than say differing ear sizes.

Take yellow and brown for example. Yellow contains more light, and so is brighter and clearer than say Brown, which contains less light and is thus harder to see. Roadsigns are done in combinations that are more striking and easier to see - yellow and black etc. Advertising students at the UTS Sydney are taught that studies have shown humans see yellow and black clearer than other combinations. This has nothing to do with taste/association, and everything to do with receptability. Yellow and black are almost opposite. If others saw blue and purple; lime-green and mauve; or magenta and aqua; surely the scientific studies of reaction would indicate differing responses.

My partial multi-sensing is purely association based. Pianos sound white to me. Why? The keys of the piano are white, plus it sounds "cold". White snow is cold.

Violins bring an orangish tone to a record for me, partially because of the wood they are made from, and because of the "earthy" quality they bring.
Certain heavily effected guitar sounds sound purple because of an album cover that was purple, first had those particular sounds on it. Also the first "flange pedal" I used was purple.

Pretty much most of what we like/dislike is based on association. Cold Green (leaves) and black (tree trunks) colours occur in certain native forest areas in Australia naturally, and in the coolness of the morning are very seductive and appealing. Green and black combinations in a home then are appealing to me as they remind me of nature.

Bright yellow with purple and orange mixed with chrome doesn't occur in nature and so have the attitude of either craziness, futuristic technology, or retrospective hippy colours (without the chrome) due to associations.

The reaction to colour clarity I spoke of is not taste related and is more a finding resultant from observing behavioural reactions.

To me colour blindness in people shows that the majority DO see things, if not the same, then very similarly because the colour blind person clearly does not.
As I mentioned earlier, if genetics passed on contribute to skull shape, body shape, career predisposition and others, surely reception of light would be included in that.

Guys I just woke up, I'm about to head to Derry in North Ireland, so I hope you'll forgive me if the post sounds disjointed or unclear. I feel like I'm wading through fog.

------------------
I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

WOLFGIR · 05-22-2001, 07:15 AM

Even if you wading in fog you still post interesting stuff friend!

Take care and enjoy your travelings!!

------------------

Yawning lazywolf..

Fljotsdale · 05-22-2001, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yorick:
Well then Fjlotsdale, this is just for you and maybe a little bit for Moiraine and Wolgir.....

Guys I just woke up, I'm about to head to Derry in North Ireland, so I hope you'll forgive me if the post sounds disjointed or unclear. I feel like I'm wading through fog.

Looks clear enough to me, Yorick!
But what a pity - I don't disagree with a word you've written! I would, however, like to highlight one point you made:
"To me colour blindness in people shows that the majority DO see things, if not the same, then very similarly because the colour blind person clearly does not."

Yes. "very similarly". Not identically, Yorick.

Which is why the same purple/green combo will look great to me but yukky to my daughter. We both see purple/green, and know we do, but it looks unpleasing to her. However a combo of a different purple/green will look fine to her and not to me. I do not think this is merely association, Yorick, but is based on the anatomical variation in numbers (howerver small) of the 3 receptors.

Anyway, this little digression into colour perception is WAY off topic and you guys have me to blame for it!
Sorry!

------------------

adam warlock · 05-23-2001, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yorick:
Would you prefer to be living in blind happiness but ignorant of the truth, or live with knowledge of the truth but be unhappy because of it?

Truth hurts but I'm aiming for the truth

------------------

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05-21-2001, 04:18 AM	#41
WOLFGIR Bastet - Egyptian Cat Goddess Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Sweden Age: 51 Posts: 3,450	Don´t forget that colors are also a "learnt behaviour". We learn how to define red at school, and thus we are "fed" the standard ideals of that, and later on we have to ask our selfes how to define color because it is mainly to your own mind you can refer. Orange and red are soewhat hard to tell if it choosen to be called red or orange at some state. We don´t go around and refer to colors using the CMYK print labels (well sometimes but that is in work since you have to..) Truth is mainly to your own ideals and decoded by your own perception and memory, thus there are maybe one truth, as a higher state, but then there are as mny shades to the truth as there are persons knowing about it. it is a tough topic here Yorick (I didn´t expect less from you! You really tease the brains mate!!) ------------------ Yawning lazywolf..

05-21-2001, 06:54 AM	#42
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 88 Posts: 2,859	Very good points you make there, Wolfgir! Couldn't have put it better myself. Well - I didn't, lol! ROFL! ------------------

05-21-2001, 08:42 AM	#43
Moiraine Anubis Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Up in the Freedomland Alps Age: 61 Posts: 2,474	Ah, colors ... It is true that any color is a scientifically measurable quantity. It is also true that the perception any living person or animal have of it is widely different from one to another ! Because between the color and the mind apply some natural and also cultural filters. My son has a box full of mind tricks involving shapes and colors, along with their scientific explanation. Like a disk with stripes of colors, that is seen as full white when it rotates fast enough. There is even one of these tricks whose explanation astonished me : the mind does not understand the pattern, so you actually see something that has no relation at all with what is really there, but is entirely created out of the blue by your mind ! Like 'I don't understand this at all, so I guess it must be that ?'. The other amazing thing about it is - it seems that all of us (human French people anyway) have minds that build the SAME guess. I shall retrieve this one for you later. My father doesn't see colors at all. Not red/green color-blind, but totally color-blind. This is a genetically transmitted anomaly, supposedly affecting only males ( ). The weird thing is, his sister is also affected by it, so it seems that it runs strong in his family. My son though is not affected (you bet I had him tested as soon as possible ! ). Red/green color-blindness is different with 'true' colors and with colors on computer screens (If you are interested, I can retrieve the scientific explanation as well). So a true red/green color-blind person will see grass 'red' and blood 'green' in computer games. Playing BG II should be weird ! In fact, that's how my partner for the Engineer diploma discovered that he was red/green color-blind ! Some humans have weird associations in the brain between two separate feelings, which are 'hard-coded', I mean that they have been set very soon in life and can't be broken, they are physical links between two areas of the brain that don't usually relate. The most common of these 'associations' is between colors and, say, sound or letters. Some, rarer, are between smell and music, for example. I, for example, associate colors with vowels, always the same color with the same vowel, and by extension I associate colors with sounds, as musical notes are spelled 'Do-Re-Mi-Fa-Sol-La-Si' in French, very 'vowelly' words ! My son's piano teacher had the great idea to teach notes with colors, but as he doesn't use the same colors that those set in my brain, I can't remember his system ! Oh, and just in case you would be like my Mum and not believe me, these colors are NOT the ones in the book I learned to read with ! By extension, I associate colors with things and people, based mostly of the color of their 'name' given by its vowels ! In fact, when I started to read in English, I couldn't see the words in colors as I do in French, and I felt handicapped, as something allowing me to read faster was missing. I started to get the feeling that I read English fluently when I started feeling colors in text. Now you must think I am crazy ... Color and its perception ... ------------------ The world is my oyster ! And now I have the knives to open it ... [This message has been edited by Moiraine (edited 05-21-2001).] [This message has been edited by Moiraine (edited 05-21-2001).] [This message has been edited by Moiraine (edited 05-21-2001).]

05-21-2001, 08:52 AM	#44
WOLFGIR Bastet - Egyptian Cat Goddess Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Sweden Age: 51 Posts: 3,450	Interesting Moiraine!! I had hard to figure out notes when I played piano as little, I tried to memorize the different keys instead, and learned how to play it out of mind with the positions instead of notes or how it sounds.. i can tell you I´m a terrible piano "brutalizer" . I have had to use my "musical ear" to other things then to say that sounds right, this sounds bad, that I´m very good at, but nothing else.. I´m fairly good with colors, but I think that is because I have always wnated to be good with it, but I can´t say that "trainig" haven´t had anything to do with it. So well, time to make a point here Sorry, lost it, you have to live the rumblings once more! ------------------ Yawning lazywolf..

05-21-2001, 03:24 PM	#45
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 53 Posts: 9,246	Did you guys know I am a partial multi-sensate, as in certain musical sounds have certain colours for me. My music is very visual to me. Got to go, bad connection at the now-closing cafe. V. interesting posts Moirain/Wolf/Fjlots. Talk soon. Salut! ------------------ I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

05-21-2001, 06:04 PM	#46
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 88 Posts: 2,859	Darn it! I enjoy arguing with Yorick! ------------------

05-22-2001, 05:59 AM	#47
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 53 Posts: 9,246	Well then Fjlotsdale, this is just for you and maybe a little bit for Moiraine and Wolgir..... Colour blindness is an abberration, not the norm. There is still little to indicate that we do not all see "red" instead of "blue", other than different receptors, which are little different than say differing ear sizes. Take yellow and brown for example. Yellow contains more light, and so is brighter and clearer than say Brown, which contains less light and is thus harder to see. Roadsigns are done in combinations that are more striking and easier to see - yellow and black etc. Advertising students at the UTS Sydney are taught that studies have shown humans see yellow and black clearer than other combinations. This has nothing to do with taste/association, and everything to do with receptability. Yellow and black are almost opposite. If others saw blue and purple; lime-green and mauve; or magenta and aqua; surely the scientific studies of reaction would indicate differing responses. My partial multi-sensing is purely association based. Pianos sound white to me. Why? The keys of the piano are white, plus it sounds "cold". White snow is cold. Violins bring an orangish tone to a record for me, partially because of the wood they are made from, and because of the "earthy" quality they bring. Certain heavily effected guitar sounds sound purple because of an album cover that was purple, first had those particular sounds on it. Also the first "flange pedal" I used was purple. Pretty much most of what we like/dislike is based on association. Cold Green (leaves) and black (tree trunks) colours occur in certain native forest areas in Australia naturally, and in the coolness of the morning are very seductive and appealing. Green and black combinations in a home then are appealing to me as they remind me of nature. Bright yellow with purple and orange mixed with chrome doesn't occur in nature and so have the attitude of either craziness, futuristic technology, or retrospective hippy colours (without the chrome) due to associations. The reaction to colour clarity I spoke of is not taste related and is more a finding resultant from observing behavioural reactions. To me colour blindness in people shows that the majority DO see things, if not the same, then very similarly because the colour blind person clearly does not. As I mentioned earlier, if genetics passed on contribute to skull shape, body shape, career predisposition and others, surely reception of light would be included in that. Guys I just woke up, I'm about to head to Derry in North Ireland, so I hope you'll forgive me if the post sounds disjointed or unclear. I feel like I'm wading through fog. ------------------ I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

05-22-2001, 07:15 AM	#48
WOLFGIR Bastet - Egyptian Cat Goddess Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Sweden Age: 51 Posts: 3,450	Even if you wading in fog you still post interesting stuff friend! Take care and enjoy your travelings!! ------------------ Yawning lazywolf..

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