Europes population falling

[Stormymystic]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by johnny: quote: Originally posted by Night Stalker: Actually johnny, we have 51 governments ..... one Fed and 50 State. Each state has it's own sepparate Constitution.

So you're not ONE nation under God, with one flag, etc....

Come on dude, you know what i mean. You can't compare Europe with the US like that. [/QUOTE]You know you're right! Unlike the United States of Europe, the United States of America doesn't have Polish people, Dutch, Germans, Italians, Jews, Africans, Spainish, Amerindians, Indians, Arabs, Irish, English, Scottish or Australians all living in it's nation.

I don't know why I thought racial homogenity wasn't an issue in determining what a nation was. Silly me. [/QUOTE]do you guys always have to find something to fight about?????
geez come on let every country decide their own paths, and let the people who are the country vote their way

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Stormymystic: do you guys always have to find something to fight about????? geez come on let every country decide their own paths, and let the people who are the country vote their way

But if those seperate countries become one nation, why should they get the international votes of many nations? This is an international issue, not just a national issue. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Besides, it's fun.

[Yorick]

See, why should Lichtenstein get the same votes as China? Why should Denmark with 4 million, have the same voice as India with 1 billion? Is this a world that respects democracy? It seems democracy is selective when it comes to world affairs.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Mouse: The whole point of the ECSC, the EEC and the EC and the EU is that they have evolved by the gradual secession of some aspects of national sovereignty to their institutions. Sovereignty is like virginity, once you give it away, it's virtually impossible to get it back, and even if you say you still have it, people know what you've done Personally speaking, I don't fear closer European integration. Anything that breaks down the national barriers and prejudices that lead (to a large extent) to two World Wars should be supported. I also believe that the European Court (which is an organ of the EU) and the European Court of Human Rights (which is not) are useful in enforcing minimum agreed standards of behaviour against national governments. In a country where there is no written constitution, it is a powerful deterrant against the exercise of unreasonable powers by the Executive. Finally, it is often forgotten that the supreme legislative body in the EU is still the Council of Ministers and that consists of elected representatives of member governments. The European Parliament (a directly elected body) still only has limited autonomous powers. As for the often reviled Commission and it's President, unless they are acting under treaty powers in strictly proscribed areas, all they do is carry out the Parliament's and the Council of Minister's instructions. Here in the UK, we love to rail against the "Brussels Bureaucrats" when in effect, we should be directing our criticism against the elected representatives who gave them the briefs and authority to come up with some of their more unpalatable plans. Just so you know, all the above is dredged from a year of study of European Law and Institutions that I undertook as part of a degree about 8 years ago, so I apologise for any factual innacuracies and misremembered notions. I am, after all, a confirmed Eurotwit

Great post Mouse. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Consider this a response.

[Stormymystic]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Stormymystic: do you guys always have to find something to fight about????? geez come on let every country decide their own paths, and let the people who are the country vote their way

But if those seperate countries become one nation, why should they get the international votes of many nations? This is an international issue, not just a national issue. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Besides, it's fun. [/QUOTE]ahh so you are picky [img]tongue.gif[/img]
they should get the votes, because they are still seperate, even thoung they are under one nation now, like with Alaska, they are under us, but still are seperate too, and I seem to not be making much sense, so I will shut up now :S....and no I have not been drinking yet

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Stormymystic: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Stormymystic: do you guys always have to find something to fight about????? geez come on let every country decide their own paths, and let the people who are the country vote their way

But if those seperate countries become one nation, why should they get the international votes of many nations? This is an international issue, not just a national issue. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Besides, it's fun. [/QUOTE]ahh so you are picky [img]tongue.gif[/img]
they should get the votes, because they are still seperate, even thoung they are under one nation now, like with Alaska, they are under us, but still are seperate too, and I seem to not be making much sense, so I will shut up now :S....and no I have not been drinking yet [/QUOTE]Stormy, Alaska do not have a seperate vote at the U.N.

[WOLFGIR]

Very interesting topic Yorick, and one that caused a stir if I´m not totally wrong a few months ago as TL mentioned.

Personally I´m rather skeptic to an all united European country. Why? Because I come from a country with a rather small population, and I see alot that differ from Sweden, even Scandinavian mindset, when traveling and speaking with the rest of Europe. I have had the pleasure to visit most countries in Europe and I will try to mark of the last ones as well sometime in the future.
But the main thing is that Sweden will be close to disapear totally in Europe. We would be controlled economicly by other countries currancies and we have no say any longer. We are far away from the European mindset up here in the North. Well some of us are. Some believe, some do not. I do actually like most of the way we are conducting our own country here without interferance from the rest of Europe. I might be a skeptical person but still, Sweden is by percent, read that again ok, who has one of the largest immigrant quotes in the world. Well I know you will probably say eh? How can that be? Maybe cause we are very few up here, and I for one will vote and believe in Sweden being Sweden, not me becomming a European. I like our social laws alot more then most of the countries, even though most up here believe they are falling short of what they should be and have been. In a sense some of us are already drawing the conclusion that we are getting it worse the more we are closing in on Europe.

The EMU and the common market is perhaps a nice idea, but too many are rushing into it. For us it woul mean we loose the power to do something about the economical situation in our own country. And to me, that is not a gain. We sure have a huge commerce with Europe, but we also trade alot with USA, Canada, Asia and world. So why not take on the dollar instead? For us, that would probably be a better choice. *Sarcasm can be put here*

I can understand that US likes to see EU as europe and one vote one voice. However, you should have realised after the Iraq war that this is not the case. We have countries that are NATO, former Warzaw pact and Neutral in Europe. Some are not members of EU and are still members of Nato. Europe is not a nation, not a gathering of nations under one president, one law.

I don´t speak for alot of people, but I still like to make my voice heard. And for me, that is not to become a European. It is heard by being a Swede.

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Yorick: See, why should Lichtenstein get the same votes as China? Why should Denmark with 4 million, have the same voice as India with 1 billion? Is this a world that respects democracy? It seems democracy is selective when it comes to world affairs.

As an aside note, I don't think Liechtenstein actually has any votes in anything...

[Vaskez]

Yeah Groj is right. Besides Yorick is clutching at straws with the "USA is just as diverse as Europe and so should get seperate votes like Europe" argument. We've already been through this, I didn't think it'd have to be explained to someone who seems to be intelligent. USA was established as a country pretty much by English and French colonsists IIRC and then loads of other people (all those nationalities you mentioned) immigrated to create the mixed-up wishy-washiness of ethnic groups that is the USA. They all came to join the USA. On the other hand, modern European countries are the result of ancient seperate tribes with their own culture and language settling down in different places and forming their own small countries which survive to this day. Modern day France was already established pretty much in the days of Charlemagne or whatever he was called, around 1000 years ago. Same with Hungary - the Magyars came over from Asia and settled where they still are around 960AD. A similar story can be told for nearly all European nations. They are still historically seperate cultures whereas USA started out as a country where all the mixture of people moved afterwards.

Leading on from this, just because Denmark has fewer people than China, it is still a complete entity, it is still one nation with their own culture and needs which they need represented on the international scene. I think one vote per government is the only realistic way to do it (as we do now), otherwise factions within a country will disagree and we'll have even more chaos than now A government represents its people so why should you need more than one vote from within the same government - if a country can't even come to a consensus in itself, what hope is there for the world? A country is usually a country under one government because it was meant that way - those people wanted to live together in that nation.

[ 06-04-2003, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

Great [img]smile.gif[/img] I agree one vote per government...so either the EU = 1 government OR I'll have the representative from maryland send his vote in along with the other 49 state governments [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-04-2003, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]