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Old 09-21-2005, 03:54 PM   #41
Melcheor
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Quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
But, we do not see it as the purview of our government to feed every hungry mouth and care for every sick person. Here or abroad. It's a government, it's not Jesus Christ. And, to be fair, we like to think that people who are suffering *from certain things, such as hunger or poverty* are the ones to blame because lots of times it's true. We have too many self-made people here who have worked their ass off to want to dole stuff out for free. Free-riders are an injustice, and no less culpable than others who are unjust.

For a personal take on this: As a kid, my father had a dirt floor in his house in Appalaicha. He had no opportunity for college despite good grades, so he went to work at the lowest of the jobs in his company and worked himself up the ladder to an engineer position. From the trailer in a holler he lived in, he sent his son (me) to the best education he could afford, which wasn't much, and he bested his father's income by age 30. It took me until age 31 to best my father's income. We worked through 3 generations to overcome poverty. We don't like giving shit away to those who were too lazy to do what we did.
No, nobody likes to give to those who will abuse the generosity, and in a perfect world you would be able to give only to those who need it. You can't though, so the issue is wether you are willing to give to all of them or let the "lazy" ones sour your view and deny your aid to the needy.

Government may not be Jesus, but the big man isn't feeding many thousands these days. Governments are the only ones with the resources to make a difference. Bush was voted in by the religious right, maybe he should follow the footsteps and try some miracles of his own.

Quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
But, with Africa, it's not like there are no rich people. Africa's starvation and other problems are more attributable to the continuing cycle of revolutions and dictatorships than to our failure to send over boats of grain, wouldn't you think?
This shouldn't stop us sending those boats of grain. many dictatorships come to power in a blood bath or with the promise of stadiums, but many do not. You are justifying your opinion with stereotypes. Even if some take advantage of aid, we should still send it for the benefit of those who do not. I think we can all agree that long term aid and education is what is needed most.

Estimates suggest the total cost of the iraq war will end up somewhere between $150 and $250 billion, just for the US. The G8, by comparison, *managed* to agree to $50 billion dollars in aid. Your country does have its priorities wrong and so does mine. This is what the adverts highlited.

Sometimes I feel that africa would be in far better shape if the empires had never collapsed. They took with them all the skills and people required to run a country, just leaving the more impressive buildings that governments promises are based on. Thank you Roosevelt... Thats just my view though, its far from universal. Que sig.

[ 09-21-2005, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Melcheor ]
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Old 09-21-2005, 04:01 PM   #42
Melcheor
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamer128:
Also, I doubt the average oppressed-African has the acces to independent media or education needed to even realise there is an alternative to the corrupt dictatorships they have known all their life.
You forget that it is the *oh so* impartial and independent media that started this whole argument. If corrupt dictatorships are the source of many of Africa's problems, the media is the source of much of ours.

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Old 09-21-2005, 04:36 PM   #43
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Sometimes I feel that africa would be in far better shape if the empires had never collapsed. They took with them all the skills and people required to run a country, just leaving the more impressive buildings that governments promises are based on.
true enough, redrawing the borders of ancient tribal nations to suit themselves is a large part of the problem, minority tribes that were placed in power by the British, French, Dutch, etc because they supported Europe couldn't hold on after the European powers left, and the vacuum caused a significant part of the civil warfare. Jump ahead 60-100 years, add in arms trafficking, religion, corruption, etc and we've got a kettle that we can't put the lid on and no simple solution. (sending aid isn't really a solution as the warlords routinely confiscate the food/clothing/etc and distribute it only to their people. Trying to control where the aid goes resulted in the events covered by Blackhawk Down which was later made into a mostly accurate movie.
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Old 09-21-2005, 04:45 PM   #44
Melcheor
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Quote:
Originally posted by Azred:
font color = lightgreen>Then perhaps when enough people over there get tired of being broomhandled (thank you, Timber) by their governments, which have some of the most notorious human-rights abuse records and widespread corruption problems in the modern world, they might make some headway towards improving the quality of life.
If popular revolt doesn't work, then a group of nations (or only the US if others don't wish to join in) should tell each government "you have 6 months to improve or we will implement regime change here"...and then follow through on that statement.
Implomenting regieme change, is inneficient and costly (see previous posts). Propaganda will make sure that the people in [insert african country] won't see it from your perspective, neither will the french. Things ain't that simple.

As starange as it seems, democracy is not always the answer. People on the whole are stupid and easily intimidated. Just look at the mess Afghanistan is still in, pollitically speaking. A cynical view would be that Afghanistan was just a kneejerk reaction to 9/11 and Iraq had oil. Both invasions succeded, and both regieme changes are failing. Democracy and a long-oppressed, uneducated population is a recepie for disaster. Time and education are needed before democracy will work, and even then it has its problems. It is not Americas job to crusade across the world forcing countries into an arguably flawed system which the population is not ready for. This is neo-conservatism, and the crusade for good is more for the benefit of american society than the people being "liberated". Educating populations is the only solution, but this takes generations, as with our democracies. It is not Americas job to do this either, and even if it was, it is nigh on impossible to do with a corrupt regieme that doesn't want this. It would require invasion, which turns a population against you and your ideas. Catch 22 people! Cant succesfully change a regime without education. Can't educate without a succesful regieme change. Another view is that Iraq was a muscle flex. America showing the world it will act on its threats. This too has failed. Two words, North Korea. I have no solutions, I just thought I'd go wildly off topic to show that if problems were as simple as forums and media make out, they'd have been solved already. You can't beat catch 22...

All this pontificating has made me thirsty. I'm gonna go have a beer.
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Old 09-21-2005, 04:51 PM   #45
Melcheor
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morgeruat:
true enough, redrawing the borders of ancient tribal nations to suit themselves is a large part of the problem, minority tribes that were placed in power by the British, French, Dutch, etc because they supported Europe couldn't hold on after the European powers left, and the vacuum caused a significant part of the civil warfare. Jump ahead 60-100 years, add in arms trafficking, religion, corruption, etc and we've got a kettle that we can't put the lid on and no simple solution. (sending aid isn't really a solution as the warlords routinely confiscate the food/clothing/etc and distribute it only to their people. Trying to control where the aid goes resulted in the events covered by Blackhawk Down which was later made into a mostly accurate movie.
We can't just abandon the countries to their fate though. Call me an idealist but however much aid gets diverted and however difficult it is to ensure it reaches the right people, we still have a duty to try. Sinicism and resignation can cost millions of lives.

BTW that film is pretty damn good, real eye opener.
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Old 09-21-2005, 05:32 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Larry_OHF:
That's a great point, Azred. I have read something somewhere about motivational methods...and the guilt trip was mentioned as a no-no.
Truth is a good motivator too. I've never helped anyone out of a sense of guilt, but the plain truth that some people do need help cannot be ignored and is motivation enough if you ask me.

Besides why feel guilty? Like most people, I've certainly never done anything to help make people poor, or sick, or hungry. If anything I feel the opposite of guilt(compassion) in response to wide-spread situations like malnutrition, babies born with aids, and sick people with no medicine or care, ect.
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Old 09-21-2005, 05:47 PM   #47
Melcheor
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Still, guilt can be a powerful force for good. I don't think the opposite of guilt is compassion, the opposite to feeling guilty about a situation is to not feel guilty. Compassion is more to do with empathy and I think both can, and should, play their part. The adverts play on both compassion and guilt, if you ask me. Maybe more the latter, but highlighting the problems will still create empathy. Stick and carrot. Well, 2x4 and baby carrot.
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Old 09-21-2005, 08:31 PM   #48
Azred
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamer128:
Azred: how do you suggest they improve their quality of life? Obviously, the democratic process doesn't function in many such countries, as all major political parties are typically extremely corrupt. Also, I doubt the average oppressed-African has the acces to independent media or education needed to even realise there is an alternative to the corrupt dictatorships they have known all their life.
It doesn't take education or access to the media to realize that life can be better than being brutalized by jack-booted thugs armed with machetes and AK-47s. [img]graemlins/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif[/img]

I never said "democracy", but that would be an improvement over what many of them have now.

The 1990s showed that it is possible to field an army of mercenaries capable of defeating a country's armed forces and that it could be done rather cost-effectively. That also lets you keep your hands clean. [img]graemlins/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif[/img]
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Old 09-21-2005, 09:41 PM   #49
Felix The Assassin
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grojlach:
quote:
Originally posted by Felix The Assassin:
quote:
Originally posted by Grojlach:
quote:
Originally posted by Felix The Assassin:


A person with HIV did something (for the majority) to become infected with the virus.

A person that is hungry, has not attempted to grow a garden, fish, or hunt the wild critters that go well with garden fresh potatoes.

Those are really, really ignorant statements. Seriously, what the hell? [/QUOTE]Why? How does it make YOU feel? Does it strike a chord? I have patrolled the streets of Kosovo, I have been shot at, and returned fire in many places other than Iraq. I have walked the streets of El Paso, TX. So tell me, Oh wise one what do my first hand experiences of people, poverty, and the dying not have to do with this political scam? I have seen an (insert what you like, but it must be politically correct) kill a (the other politically correct term) because he raised a 'pig' to feed his family. I have seen fertile ground sit idle. I have seen sex in the streets and no protection used. I have shared a bottle with a 'bum' to experience life without shelter. He could have shelter, but 'he' choose to weather the storm. Others could have shelter too, but it would call for that four letter word, AKA: WORK.

The key here is WILL where there is will, there is a way. However, I have seen with my own two eyes, many ways, but not a single will!

If you want to cry foul, go forth an experience life to it's fullest, then come back full circle and we shall quantify your findings!
[/QUOTE]
...And as we all know, anecdotal evidence automatically beats common logic and actual factual knowledge - and allows you to say whatever the hell you want to say to drive home a certain point, in whatever way you want to say it; even at the expense of sounding like a jerk in the process. So those millions upon millions of people in, say, Ethiopia or India dying of hunger are just lazy? Ever heard of overpopulation, ruined harvests, natural disasters, wars, or even simply climate and weather conditions playing a role in possible cases of hunger?
As for Aids, people getting raped in South Africa are just asking for it? Careless, unhygienic blood transfusions spreading aids is the patient's fault? Hey, and did you know Aids could get carried over to newborn babies as well, in 15 to 30% of all cases, with the risk getting higher when breastfeeding? Those babies had it coming as well, right?
And yes, nice newsflash there that people in poverty and desperation could do horrible, horrible things. The New Orleans disaster fallout in itself demonstrates that clearly, but I was aware of that beforehand as well. Just that I didn't see it with my own eyes doesn't automatically invalidate anything I have to say by default, however.

I'm sure you've seen some awful things, and without a doubt in those anecdotal cases those people had it coming just like you said, but anecdotal evidence should never cloud your judgment in the face of other known and more prevalent causes for aforementioned tragedies. For someone as experienced in life as you are, reading a newspaper every once and awhile shouldn't be that much of a problem, right?
[/QUOTE]Hmm, very interesting. Penny ante words and nickel phrases to quantify one's thesis. This path must then lead to a scholar with no real world application. Study through the written word has no dimension to it. There is no meaning, no touch, smell, grasp, only a one sided replay of a one sided writing. How horrid!

The inability to grasp, combined with educational potential, could lead to the probability of exceeding one's capabilities, for that has been experienced as well. But to lay out excuses on how and why people can or cannot become something, is a true lack of real experience, something that can never be taught or learned from a school house!

Having seen some awful things? That only dependes upon the beholder. I may have witnessed events that would make others cry, but I felt unique. Then again, things that would allow me to feel sorrow, may allow others to feel strong. It all depends upon the person. I'm a hunter, of a hunter, to a hunter. The hunted I study can not be replicated in a text book, nor in a PC software package. Thou the hunted has a sharp and willful mind, it can become predicatable. And that can only come from first hand experience, and being the hunted prior to the hunter!

People, not a custom, not a country, not a population, society, or ethnical background, but human reactions are what drive people to do things that they do, or the lack there of.


Link- I fully understand! It made me sick as well. I had 9 guys on the ground, seperating 3 Muslims, and 5 Christians, and some LBD decided this was the time and place to try out his new AK! Then it was another fist fight to get the two groups seperated again. People! Have you ever conducted a Humanatarian relief mission in Africa? It ain't all that civil or humane! People!

Illumina- Been there done that twice, once with family, once with a soldier. Neither was a nice event, and both turned out to be placed into an 'area of self preservation'. Good luck, and may patience shines it's slow glimmer upon thee.
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Old 09-21-2005, 09:52 PM   #50
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I think the message the ad is sending is important, and those issues do tend to get ignored.

The method of delivery certainly could have been better though.

As for the people helping themselves issue, Felix you of all people should know that some don't have the luxury of choices in life, they are victoms of their environment.
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