Commentary on current day France...An Article

[Ar-Cunin]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Quote: The production of kosher meat, known as shechita, has long been illegal in Norway, Denmark and Sweden. And in Switzerland, attempts to lift a century-old ban caused an anti-Semitic backlash earlier this year.

These are fair on-point concerns that directly address Doubting Donut. They are as issue specific as you can get.

[/QUOTE]You can get Kosher (and Halal) in Denmark - only certain methods that were deemed as animal cruelty were banned. And I'm pretty sure this goes for Norway and Sweden as well - we usually see eye-to-eye on these issues.

As for anti-semitism - we don't have any more or less than the next country I suspect [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Skunk]

Especially the gang brutality against women part...

That gang rape in poor areas is becoming frequent is true - that it is purely a muslim boy's past time is not. It is the result of social problems that normally come with deprived neighbourhoods - but problems that have not been dealt with to the point that rape is becoming a normal part of the 'culture' in those areas. If you want to get an insight into the problem, check the link below; it isn't pretty:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/sto...928829,00.html

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Grojlach: Quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Thanks for even more articles and links TL and Sir-T but jeez why can't they do their own serches instead of intimating that someone is being dishonest?

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Ouch, Donut, does it sting??? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

And you people wonder why discussions get so heated to a frustrating level lately? Come on guys, that wasn't necessary...
Anyways, the links Sir Taliesin posted link to articles which are far-fetched and biased (the first article is crawling with references to Nazi-Germany *sigh* Godwin's Law, anyone? ), but putting that aside, they're mentioning a Dutch law banning only a certain type of animal kosher slaughter because of its supposed cruelty - it's not even close to anti-semitism, but heck, if these are the sources you get your information from, it's almost understandable why people are incited to call it as such.
Probably none of you has ever been in the Netherlands or any of the other countries mentioned, but there simply isn't any "rise in anti-semitism". Even if is there is a slight percentual increase (which I'd like to see decent proof of, instead of the above articles, because I doubt it), it's probably because xenophobia on the whole is unfortunately on the rise in the last few years. But the xenophobia is mostly turned towards muslims, actually... People around here actually seemed to have forgotten about Judaism as a Different Religion completely lately, to be honest; I'm not sure how it is in the US, but over here most people don't really care anymore about religious differences (except perhaps for the so called "Evil Muslims" ), which is why an article about the rise in anti-semitism in Europe seems rather silly and unbelievable. I didn't notice any of it myself, that's for sure.
Sure, there's the occasional oddball who still resorts to nazism, and because things sometimes get heated between a part of the muslim population and some of my countrymen and taking the shaky Israel/rest-of-the-Middle-East relationships into account, there are the occasional banners during protests which could be explained as anti-semitic in a way; but they're hardly worth mentioning, especially in contrast with the raging xenophobia against the muslim population in Europe lately.

Oh, and I've seen people "confuse" criticism on Israel with anti-semitic sentiments in the past as well, but surely I don't have to point out how this is doesn't really add up?[/QUOTE]I must point out that I was merely providing some links to the subject at hand. I don't vouch for their arguements. I was intrigued by the subject and went and looked it up. When I saw that other were asking for links, I posted what I found.

Having said that, I do sense a somewhat disturbing trend towards anti-semitism in Europe. Nothing specific, just little things I see, hear and read from time to time.

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Skunk: Quote: Especially the gang brutality against women part...

That gang rape in poor areas is becoming frequent is true - that it is purely a muslim boy's past time is not. It is the result of social problems that normally come with deprived neighbourhoods - but problems that have not been dealt with to the point that rape is becoming a normal part of the 'culture' in those areas. If you want to get an insight into the problem, check the link below; it isn't pretty:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/sto...928829,00.html[/QUOTE]That has to be the sickest thing, I've read in a while! This really goes on in France? It's horrible! How long a sentence does rape get in France?

[Mordenheim]

"Breillat - one of France's more outspoken and notorious directors - doesn't mince her words. She hates France, the French, being French. She knows exactly where to lay the blame: her own culture. This is a macho country. It's partly Latin, partly Nordic, and the result is an incredible hypocrisy. We are a country of Tartuffes. We never confront our problems, and that's why we're helpless when faced with the gang rapes, because we're all complicit."-"

If this is true then why on earth is action not being taking? I mean these women have to have brothers, fathers, etc. I would be outside with a shotgun or if needed a basbeball bat and kitchen knife.

[Skunk]

As for anti-semitism - we don't have any more or less than the next country I suspect

True for most of Europe - what we *are* seeing though is a growing rise in anti-zionism even amongst the jewish population. Supporters of the occuptation of Palestine policy are getting a rougher and rougher ride.

[Donut]

Originally posted by MagiK: Quote: Originally posted by Donut: They were made to feel so uncomfortable here that they made a decision to leave.

Feeling uncomfortable is a far cry from being executed which your reference to ethnic cleansing refered....I think you chose poorly in your comparisons..

On the other hand I don't think they could have felt any more uncomfortable than I have been made to feel on here from time to time...both as an American and as a Conservative.

Edit: But thanks for filling me in on what happened...I had seen references to them leaving but didn't know what the scoop was. [/QUOTE]I fear you are confusing "ethnic cleansing" with genocide. The two often go together but not necessarily so. The Western Saharans were ethnically cleansed from their own country without being executed.

Here's another example of perceived ethnic cleansing which may explain the concept in it's wider meaning.

I would never feel isolated as a Brit on IW because there are so many of us. There were only two Freedom people here and I can understand how the Freedom Bashing made them feel unwelcome.

[ 04-10-2003, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

[Donut]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: Some links. http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0702/euro_kosher.asp http://www.shemayisrael.com/chareidi...RH63vshech.htm I assume that's what Majik is talking about.

I got this far: " "The lie that ritual slaughter is cruel simply shows a hatred for Jewish life," he said. " and gave up. Big jump!

We are anti Sikh in Britain because we have a law that wearing of crash helmets on motor bikes is compulsory.

[Donut]

Originally posted by MagiK: Quote: Originally posted by Donut: No - I couldn't find any either.

So should I interpret this to mean "Im too damn lazy to look it up for myself so I'll just call him a liar"? or are you saying that the search function does not work for you?

Edit: I did post at least one article about it. There was a debate and much poo pooing the issue.[/QUOTE]It must be the lazy one because I would never call you a liar openly on IW.

No, hang on, I've thought of a couple of other reasons.

1) Can't be bothered because he's heading for some EU bashing

2) Too busy

[ 04-10-2003, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

[Donut]

Originally posted by Grojlach: Quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Thanks for even more articles and links TL and Sir-T but jeez why can't they do their own serches instead of intimating that someone is being dishonest?

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Ouch, Donut, does it sting??? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

And you people wonder why discussions get so heated to a frustrating level lately? Come on guys, that wasn't necessary...
Anyways, the links Sir Taliesin posted link to articles which are far-fetched and biased (the first article is crawling with references to Nazi-Germany *sigh* Godwin's Law, anyone? ), but putting that aside, they're mentioning a Dutch law banning only a certain type of animal kosher slaughter because of its supposed cruelty - it's not even close to anti-semitism, but heck, if these are the sources you get your information from, it's almost understandable why people are incited to call it as such.
Probably none of you has ever been in the Netherlands or any of the other countries mentioned, but there simply isn't any "rise in anti-semitism". Even if is there is a slight percentual increase (which I'd like to see decent proof of, instead of the above articles, because I doubt it), it's probably because xenophobia on the whole is unfortunately on the rise in the last few years. But the xenophobia is mostly turned towards muslims, actually... People around here actually seemed to have forgotten about Judaism as a Different Religion completely lately, to be honest; I'm not sure how it is in the US, but over here most people don't really care anymore about religious differences (except perhaps for the so called "Evil Muslims" ), which is why an article about the rise in anti-semitism in Europe seems rather silly and unbelievable. I didn't notice any of it myself, that's for sure.
Sure, there's the occasional oddball who still resorts to nazism, and because things sometimes get heated between a part of the muslim population and some of my countrymen and taking the shaky Israel/rest-of-the-Middle-East relationships into account, there are the occasional banners during protests which could be explained as anti-semitic in a way; but they're hardly worth mentioning, especially in contrast with the raging xenophobia against the muslim population in Europe lately.

Oh, and I've seen people "confuse" criticism on Israel with anti-semitic sentiments in the past as well, but surely I don't have to point out how this is doesn't really add up?[/QUOTE]Good post Groj. Living in Europe I don't see any rise in anti-judaism. I agree that anti muslim feeling is increasing at the moment but I hope that will subside. I think that any laws on kosher food will also apply to halal food.

Of course they may have a better handle on things from where they are.

BTW - isn't it rude when they address people in the third person when you are here all the time! [img]smile.gif[/img]