Heard a great song today!

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by frudi_x: Quote: Originally posted by John D Harris: First off the USA is NOT anxious to jump into war IT HAS BEEN ALLMOST 18 months since our country was attacked! By no stretch of any imagination can that be considered anxious! For 18 months the USA has danced around any invasion. You bet your sweet pippy it will be a war! And people will die make no mistake about it!

THAT'S your excuse? what does Iraq have to do with the 9/11 terrorist attacks?
oh, wait... i forget who i'm talking to. i can understand how someone can be conviced the american propaganda machinery, while trying to get support for it's invasion of another country, would be closer to the truth than independant media across the world...[/QUOTE]Would that independant media be run by editors or bureau chiefs from areas, that had bombs dropped that were also defying UN mandates?

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Link: Quote: Originally posted by John D Harris: First off the USA is NOT anxious to jump into war IT HAS BEEN ALLMOST 18 months since our country was attacked! By no stretch of any imagination can that be considered anxious! For 18 months the USA has danced around any invasion. You bet your sweet pippy it will be a war! And people will die make no mistake about it! You logic about Israel is flawed allmost beyond belief! NAME ONE time Israel has ever use it's WoMD! Then go talk to the Kurd civilians that were killed in 1991 after the Gulf war by the Iraqis! I saw the bodies of babies killed by Iraqis chemical attacks plastered all over the TV. Why do you think there is a Northern NO-fly zone in Iraq? Or how about talking to the Iranians that where killed during the little war between Iraq and Iran? There is a far cry from having WoMD's and Using them on civilains!!!!! Israel did not get any WoMD from the USA, they got them on their own, you know the old fashion way. They stole a ship loaded with fisionable matterial, the ship sailed from Norway I believe so if you want to blame somebody blame the Nowegians(SP?) for not having enough security on a ship of fisionable matterial.

Hear hear for frudi_x on the first part, no need to state that twice.
My logic concerning Israel and Iraq is absolutely NOT flawed beyond belief. What I said was that America's reason for invading Iraq is supposed to be that "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction". Israel has weapons of mass destruction and is willing (believe me) to use them against the Palestinian people. Okay; I made a mistake by saying that they are using WoMD against Palestinians, I admit it. I should have said that just having weapons of mass destruction is reason enough for America to attack another country. This is just the same as Bush's "everyone who is not with us, is against us". Mind you, I'm not saying that Saddam Hussein should not be tackled. I'm just saying that if you do, don't be stupid and name the correct reason.

Israel is no more a saint than you and I, John D Harris. Keep that in mind.

And Johnny; I understand what you're saying but you can't tell me that Israel only kills guilty people. I've heard countless times how Palestinian civilians have been killed in actions committed by the Israelian army. I don't like it AT ALL what happens down there, and I'm on no one's side, but I do wish for each and everyone to be treated equally.[/QUOTE]Never said I was a saint Link, in fact I have gone out of my way on numorous ocasions on IW to say I'm the exact opposite of a saint. I freely admit I'm a sinner and a worthless slime ball SOB. Nor have I said that Israel was a saint.
Here's a Harrisism to explain the problem I have with the logic:
Rapist = Country that has used WoMD agianst non military targets.
Penis = WoMD.
Nonrapist = Country that has not used WoMD against anybody.
Iraq = Rapist (see definition above)
Israel = Nonrapist (see definition above)

WoMD are not the only reason stated, it has also been stated killing of innoicent civilains, links to terrorist groups, violations of UN mandates, torture. I imagine in about a month it will all be brought out into the light of day for the world to see. Like Ripley says believe it or not

[Link]

I'm not a saint either, John, but I was simply saying that Israël is not as clean as you may think it is. Have you by the way read my reply to MagiK's post? It explain's the whole Israël - WoMD thing.

[johnny]

Of course the Israeli's are no saints, how can they be ? They're completely surrounded by enemies. Each and everyone of them waged war on Israel at some point, and they all got their butts kicked. Picture yourself in such an environment. There's only a few million Israeli's, and the entire, and i do mean entire Arab world HATES them, and would like nothing else more than to destroy the state of Israel.

You have to be tough to survive in such a situation, and that's exactly what the Israeli's are, tough. They don't take shit from anyone. You attack them...they retalliate. No matter who did it. And don't start with "they're driving innocent Palestinians from their homes", most of them have Kalashnikov's at their homes. When you're carrying a kalashnikov, you're not just a civilian anymore, you become a militia. And in my point of view, that's a legitimate target.

Same goes for those 15 and 16 year old boys with their slings. Ever seen the effect of a rock thrown from such a thing ? It will split your head right open. They're not innocent either, and therefore also a legitimate target.

And i don't even wanna go back to the days before there even was a state of Israel. The jews have been mere sheep, driven to the slaughterhouse, over lots of centuries.Well, the sheep have become wolves themselves. From now on the murder of every Jew will be avenged. And i for one applaud that.

[Spelca]

Omg, I'm sorry, but what you just wrote made me sick. I don't even know how to reply to that... You're saying killing civilians is okay because they're trying to protect themselves? So in that way the terrorists have the right to kill civilians because they think they're being threatened by the Western world? But that isn't okay, is it... This makes me sad.

[johnny]

Originally posted by Spelca: Omg, I'm sorry, but what you just wrote made me sick. I don't even know how to reply to that... You're saying killing civilians is okay because they're trying to protect themselves? So in that way the terrorists have the right to kill civilians because they think they're being threatened by the Western world? But that isn't okay, is it... This makes me sad.

That's not what i said, don't twist my words. They don't have kalashnikovs to protect themselves. I think they have them for different reasons. They wouldn't have to defend themselves if there were no attacks on Israeli civilians. You make it sound as if Israel is some evil agressor.

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Spelca: Omg, I'm sorry, but what you just wrote made me sick. I don't even know how to reply to that... You're saying killing civilians is okay because they're trying to protect themselves? So in that way the terrorists have the right to kill civilians because they think they're being threatened by the Western world? But that isn't okay, is it... This makes me sad.

I have to agree with Johnny on this one. You're totally twisting his words. He didn't say a thing about civilians, he is talking about what amounts to a militia armed with assault rifles. I'm sorry Spelca, but if someone is carrying a weapon, has the knowledge and will to use it, they are no longer a civilian, and no longer rate the courtesy and restraint that a civilian would.

Call be a barbarian or a war monger all you want, but, if a man(or woman, or child) comes at me with a weapon in hand with the intent to do deadly harm, there ass is toast, and I wont feel the least bit sad about it. Ethics, platitudes, and niceties go right out the window when personal survival is on the line.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Link: I'm not a saint either, John, but I was simply saying that Israël is not as clean as you may think it is. Have you by the way read my reply to MagiK's post? It explain's the whole Israël - WoMD thing.

I read your reply to MagiK. But the truth is it is assumed Israel has Nuclear weapons, Israel has never confirmed or deined any existance our nuclear weapons on their soil. In fact if asked the Israelis will not answer the question, they won't even say "No Comment", because "no comment" is a comment. I don't believe Israel has never even tested a nuclear weapon, and given the world proof that they have nuclear weapons. Personnaly I believe they have Nuclear weapons and will use them if they feel they have too.

[Spelca]

[quote]Originally posted by Nachtrafe:

Call be a barbarian or a war monger all you want, but, if a man(or woman, or child) comes at me with a weapon in hand with the intent to do deadly harm, there ass is toast, and I wont feel the least bit sad about it. Ethics, platitudes, and niceties go right out the window when personal survival is on the line.

Yes, but he said it as if everyone is carrying guns. He said they all have them at home, so I understood that as if they can all be shot because of it. He forgot to mention all those small children and civilians without weapons who got killed. By not mentioning them, or saying those shouldn't be hurt, I just assumed he meant all of the civilians. That's how it sounded to me.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Quote: Originally posted by Link: I'm not a saint either, John, but I was simply saying that Israël is not as clean as you may think it is. Have you by the way read my reply to MagiK's post? It explain's the whole Israël - WoMD thing.

I read your reply to MagiK. But the truth is it is assumed Israel has Nuclear weapons, Israel has never confirmed or deined any existance our nuclear weapons on their soil. In fact if asked the Israelis will not answer the question, they won't even say "No Comment", because "no comment" is a comment. I don't believe Israel has never even tested a nuclear weapon, and given the world proof that they have nuclear weapons. Personnaly I believe they have Nuclear weapons and will use them if they feel they have too.[/QUOTE]Well, they don't have to *test* the missiles, they're American-made. I'm sure if you go in an Israeli MX siloh, you'll find the remaining square "shadow" discoloration on the side of the missile where the USA flag was once pasted and above that "shadow" you will see a nice big blue Star of David.

You know, Israel having WoMDs just doesn't concern me. It doesn't worry me in the least. It makes me quite happy in fact, for 3 reasons:

(1) it's nice that the USA's only true thick-and-thin friend in the region has the best weapons and

(2) it's nice that a small nation of free peoples facing enemies on all sides has them and

(3) if you draw a line from the Southern tip of Africa to Egypt to Turkey to Iraq to India to Iran to Pakistan, the ONLY nation that line will pass over that I feel *certain* has a stable government and the responsibility to never use such a weapon is.... you guessed it, Israel.

Besides, the main thing everyone on this forum keeps forgetting is that normally nations are allowed to proliferate weapons except where they have agreed otherwise. It is every nation's right to make what weapons it wants. Iraq lost that right, just like a criminal looses the right to roam freely. Iraq AGREED it lost that right, AGREED to get rid of certain classes of weapons and of all WoMD's.

So, bitching about the proliferation of weapons by other countries is silly.

As for NK, it signed the non-proliferation treaty, then agreed to certain limitations, and in exchange got a light nuke reactor from Clinton (which is a decision Bush said was well-thought-out) for POWER. Well, it kept the reactor, renigged on the treaty, and is now using the reactor to make weapons-grade plutonium.

Since Israel has never been a WoMD schmuck (I had to use some Yiddish), it has not been among these "bad actors." Israel should be accorded the same respect when discussing these matters as any first world nation - France, Russia, UK, USA. Dumping it in the bin marked "tin-pot despots and tyrants go here" is an insult.

Comparing Israel/Palestine to WoMD proliferation concerns is comparing an nation's internal crisis among its people with international weapons relations. Apples and oranges don't begin to describe the differences you're juxtaposing.