Where are the Apologies?

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Davros: Quote: Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Saddam hasn't cooperated without the REAL threat of force before, so isn't it naive to think he's suddenly, of his own accord, decided to become a good international neighbor. If US troops weren't on the ground preparing for battle, there would be no different level of cooperation from the Iraqi's than there has been for the past dozen years.

Agreed Ron - agreed.[/QUOTE]

[Davros]

Originally posted by MagiK: Quote: Originally posted by Davros: Quote: Originally posted by MagiK: So war is pointless and no one should ever go to war....would that mean you would rather be speaking German right now? Just curious.

Time and again (and not only from the one poster I have highlighted) I have seen wisecracks like this about "how you would all be speaking German", or "the French are only good at surrendering" etc. While I happen to like the US, and believe the cause to disarm Iraq is just, this sort of response is just the sort of unthinking arrogance that causes some to brand the country (US) in that exact same way (mind you, I am smart enough not to brand a whole country by the actions of the few).

It was not a wise crack Davros. It was a legitimate way of pointing out to the poster that if some people had not been willing to wage war on her behalf, both her own countrymen and the USA then she would indeed be speaking German right now. War is some times both necessary and the right thing to do, and trying to simply say "War is wrong" is childish and an over simplification.

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]Whatever MagiK [img]tongue.gif[/img] - you obviously didn't read my post. You were not waging war on their behalf - you were waging it on your behalf. Your willingness to feel noble about it implies that others owe some undying gratitude - I think that is a bunch of pap that some people like to hide behind.

[Moiraine]

Originally posted by MagiK: War is some times both necessary and the right thing to do, and trying to simply say "War is wrong" is childish and an over simplification.

I suggest you read this, MagiK. It was the official position of France on January 20th, and nothing has happened so far to substantially change it. I doubt you will be willing to treat the full French diplomatic staff as "childish".

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by MagiK: I expected the people on this forum to have a bit more intellectual honesty, but I see that was an unfounded expectation. I have been disappointed by the "other side" on this board several times in recent weeks. I used to respect them even if they did not agree with my views, now Im starting to think that I was wrong in that.

Not to be rude or confrontational but just what the hell are you talking about?
You seem to have an idea of who it is you would like to apologise to you (for reasons I'm still not quite grasping. Must be because I'm young and inexperienced [img]tongue.gif[/img] ), so care to name some names so we can say our peace and all be buds again?

[Moiraine]

Originally posted by MagiK: You are right in one thing...that was probably not all we have on the issue, but just how many humans should the US sacrifice in it's effort to satisfy public curiosity? Many seem concerned for the needless loss of life a war would cause yet seem willing to have intelligence sources revealed in public so that they may be killed by Saddam.

Showing decisive evidence to a few U.N. officials is hardly 'revealing in public'. You trust your President - I would trust mine if he publicly said only that he had seen proofs that had convinced him of the necessity of the war.

[Moiraine]

Originally posted by MagiK: My comment was valid and appropriate, the person claiming that war is never the answer would in fact be speaking German right now had not the US waged war along side her own country. So where is the sophistry in that?

Some could reply that had you (and we) moved a decade sooner, a war would perhaps not have happened then. But you didn't do 'preventive action' back then.

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Davros: Whatever MagiK [img]tongue.gif[/img] - you obviously didn't read my post. You were not waging war on their behalf - you were waging it on your behalf. Your willingness to feel noble about it implies that others owe some undying gratitude - I think that is a bunch of pap that some people like to hide behind.

Well Dav...I *did* read your post, and IMO you completely missed *Magik's* point. I dont see how Magik's post was, in any way, a wisecrack. Kaltia said that 'there was no reason for war', and Magik responded, quite appropriately I might add, with a legitemite question. One I was about to post myself, until I finished reading the thread.

If there was 'no reason for war', the majority of the world *WOULD* be speaking German right now. Hitler would have rolled over the whole bloody planet and we'd all be living in an iron dictatorship. Pure and simple. Something that the doves of this world just dont seem to understand is that, there are times when War IS NECESSARY! And when a violent, aggressive individual, responsible for an oppressive, genocidal regime has in his possession weapons that allow him the capability of destroying THOUSANDS of people in a single stroke, and is well on the way to developing weapons that will enable him to kill MILLIONS...Well, that sounds like a pretty good reason to go to War to me.

Magik...On topic...I hardly imagine that you will recieve your apologies. Despite the well presented evidence, none of those on the anti-war side seem capable of, or interested in, admitting when they're wrong. Even though they howl like banshees when one of us pro-war types ends up making a mistake.

*tosses [img]graemlins/2cents.gif[/img] on the table and walks out, shaking his head in disgust*

EDIT: To remove the *GIANT* quote tree

[ 02-11-2003, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Nachtrafe ]

[Davros]

Nope Jim - respectfully do not agree. By that argument, we should just as validly run around saying "America would be speaking Japanese today if they hadn't finally stirred from the slumber". Both points (previous German and this)are equally valid, but I don't see the other side pushing anyones nose in that one. The quotes that I have seen littered about have nothing to do with a discussion on world war II - they are a misrepresentation of a belief that "old Europe" must go along with the US position because they are in a moral debt to the US for WWII. I would hope that last statement is not your view as well, but if so then we will agree to disagree, because I think that view is a vastly insular take on the situation.

Don't get me wrong - I am all for unified action against Saddam. I was hoping to see a better effort on the proofs put forward, and was disappointed with what was. My country has pledged support to GDubbya and I am 100% behind that. In the main, the people were too, but the general mood in a country that supports you is "that case looked pretty flimsy - is that the best that the US with all its resources to pull from could pull together". Opinion polls on support have FALLEN sharply since Colins address. The message was not widely believed in my country.

As for MagiK's "apology" - I don't feel any need to make one because I have believed from the start that confronting Saddam is a good idea. For others however, to link such a demand to such a poorly received (if OZ is anything to go by) presentation seems somewhat over-proud to me. That show of Colin's has not got the world wide credibility that Magik or yourself believe it had, or that I wish it had.

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by MagiK: Quote: Originally posted by skywalker: My opposition to the war...***SNIP*** Lots of stuff ***SNIP***I'm also not convinced about the connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein, it just doesn't seem likely. So you do not believe the Phone intercepts, the intelligence agencies of the US, Britain or Australia? Who would you believe? Saddam Husein? Mark

Ray[/QUOTE]Didn't Congress already give the green light to take out terrorists wherever they are?

If Al Queda is in Iraq then why would the Weapons of Mass Destruction card even need to be brought to the table?

Didn't both the CIA and FBI draw blanks on the subject of Al Queda in Iraq? What intelligence agency was it that acquired the evidence that Bin Ladens organization is operating in Iraq?

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Didn't both the CIA and FBI draw blanks on the subject of Al Queda in Iraq? What intelligence agency was it that acquired the evidence that Bin Ladens organization is operating in Iraq?

Look here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...2%2Fwirq12.xml

This is a fairly informative article. I used a google search to run this down. If you want more info you might try another search there.