Heh!?!

[Skunk]

Try to understand why the sanctions are killing the Iraqis.
Iraq DOES buy as much food (up to the limits of the cash amount allowed) - however this is still NOT enough.

So what is killing the people:

1. Iraq wants to farm its own food - but can't. Why? Because the sanctions BLOCK farm equipment and pesticides.
2. Desert land needs water - only Iraq is not allowed to buy the pumps neccesary to irrigate the land (sanctions again)
3. People need clean water - unfortunately the sanctions block water treatment equipment - so disease spreads.
4. Medicines (esp. antibiotics) are banned (sanctions). So that dirty water is killing and diseases like cholera are rampant.
5. Medical equipment like X-ray machines are banned (sanctions) - so don't break a leg huh?
6. Iraq is not allowed to get CASH from the oil sales - this means that essential workers (like garbage workers, firemen etc) can NOT be paid...

and so on, and so on.

The sanctions goods list is ENORMOUS - and stupid.
Did you know that the basic item for personal hygene (soap) is a BANNED item??
Cloth material is a banned item
Leather is a banned item...

What are we afraid of?
That the Iraqi army will drop wet bars of soap in front of an allied army advance in the hope that the soldiers will slip up and break their necks???
Are we afraid that Saddam will develop cloth scud missiles and fire them from custom made leather launch pads???

If those 11 emtpy warheads were filled with the average Iraqi's drinking water - that would certainly constitute a biological weapon...

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Skunk: Try to understand why the sanctions are killing the Iraqis. Iraq DOES buy as much food (up to the limits of the cash amount allowed) - however this is still NOT enough. So what is killing the people: 1. Iraq wants to farm its own food - but can't. Why? Because the sanctions BLOCK farm equipment and pesticides. 2. Desert land needs water - only Iraq is not allowed to buy the pumps neccesary to irrigate the land (sanctions again) 3. People need clean water - unfortunately the sanctions block water treatment equipment - so disease spreads. 4. Medicines (esp. antibiotics) are banned (sanctions). So that dirty water is killing and diseases like cholera are rampant. 5. Medical equipment like X-ray machines are banned (sanctions) - so don't break a leg huh? 6. Iraq is not allowed to get CASH from the oil sales - this means that essential workers (like garbage workers, firemen etc) can NOT be paid... and so on, and so on. The sanctions goods list is ENORMOUS - and stupid. Did you know that the basic item for personal hygene (soap) is a BANNED item?? Cloth material is a banned item Leather is a banned item... What are we afraid of? That the Iraqi army will drop wet bars of soap in front of an allied army advance in the hope that the soldiers will slip up and break their necks??? Are we afraid that Saddam will develop cloth scud missiles and fire them from custom made leather launch pads??? If those 11 emtpy warheads were filled with the average Iraqi's drinking water - that would certainly constitute a biological weapon...

Skunk, you are simply unlearned on this issue. The several American vessels patrolling the Iraqi waters catch:
1. Outbound illegal (i.e. against the oil-for-food program) oil, and
2. Inbound weapons
All the time!! Every few days!!

If they are starving, why's that petty despot sending perfectly good oil out for something other than food and against UN Sanctions????

Maybe the people are starving - but it's the leader's fault. This idiot ran his country broke in the 80s building the regions second largest army (region = draw a line from India to South Africa, and pass through every country you cross). Now he only wants to buy more weapons. Throwing money and supplies at the Iraqi problem will not help.

[Ar-Cunin]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: Magik is correct on the Iraqi military make up. The majority of equipment is Soviet, or Chinese modified Soviet. A small bit is French.

Yes - but this is old (pre Gulf War) equipment. Magik said Iraq is still buying weapon from Russia.

[Ar-Cunin]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Skunk, you are simply unlearned on this issue. The several American vessels patrolling the Iraqi waters catch: 1. Outbound illegal (i.e. against the oil-for-food program) oil, and 2. Inbound weapons All the time!! Every few days!! If they are starving, why's that petty despot sending perfectly good oil out for something other than food and against UN Sanctions???? Maybe the people are starving - but it's the leader's fault. This idiot ran his country broke in the 80s building the regions second largest army (region = draw a line from India to South Africa, and pass through every country you cross). Now he only wants to buy more weapons. Throwing money and supplies at the Iraqi problem will not help.

And who helped SH build that army?

As for the current weapons purchases - every nation wants to be able to defend itself - Iraq is no exeption. And with the ever increasing aggressive rethoric from the US government, who can blame him?

Originally posted by Ar-Cunin: And who helped SH build that army? The Soviet Union, China, France and Germany. The US helped him build forces in the 70's most of which were expended in the Iraqi war against Iran during the 70's and or 80's (not sure of the duration). All of the weapons systems used in the 1990/91 Gulf war were of those countries, mostly the Soviet Union and China. As for the current weapons purchases - every nation wants to be able to defend itself - Iraq is no exeption. And with the ever increasing aggressive rethoric from the US government, who can blame him? Oh yes the aggressive rhetoric of the US government...if he would spend the money on food instead of weapons there would be no rhetoric...get a grip dude. You honestly think SH gives a crap about his people? Give some examples of his love and kindness to his people please.

[Skunk]

Skunk, you are simply unlearned on this issue. The several American vessels patrolling the Iraqi waters catch: 1. Outbound illegal (i.e. against the oil-for-food program) oil, and 2. Inbound weapons All the time!! Every few days!! If they are starving, why's that petty despot sending perfectly good oil out for something other than food and against UN Sanctions????

Do you work for no money? Why do you expect the Iraqi sewage workers, Garbage workers etc to work for no cash? Iraq HAS sell oil outside the sanctions or the entire system will collapse - more civilians will die from sickness and disease if you don't pay these guys (for example).
Inbound weapons - well, do the police in your area have no guns at their disposal? What about the army? So why not Iraq?

[Ar-Cunin]

Originally posted by MagiK: Oh yes the aggressive rhetoric of the US government...if he would spend the money on food instead of weapons there would be no rhetoric...get a grip dude. You honestly think SH gives a crap about his people? Give some examples of his love and kindness to his people please.

[/QB][/QUOTE]

Well - recently he gave 5 times the normal rations to 'the people' - in case that the future delieveries may be impeded due to a possible war.

Seriously - I don't support SH, or condone any of his actions. However I can't see any vaid reason for a US led attack on Iraq. And SH/Iraq isn't worse than a dozen other world leaders/contries

P.S. And please don't call me 'dude' (or anything similar). I'm a grown man and such names are very condescending.

Originally posted by Ar-Cunin: Well - recently he gave 5 times the normal rations to 'the people' - in case that the future delieveries may be impeded due to a possible war. Name address and phone number of an Iraqi citizen who can confirm that they did indeed receive the food, and that it has not been confiscated or taken back? Seriously - I don't support SH, or condone any of his actions. However I can't see any vaid reason for a US led attack on Iraq. And SH/Iraq isn't worse than a dozen other world leaders/contries Well a nuclear, chemical and biological program is quite enough to cause a US led attack. The UN resolution does say that the burden is on Iraq to prove that they have disarmed, they have not done this and even Hans blix has been saying that the Iraqi's are not being forthcoming. I repeat, the burden of proof lies on Iraq as the defeated combatant of a war to prove its disarmament. P.S. And please don't call me 'dude' (or anything similar). I'm a grown man and such names are very condescending. I was not aware that your masculinity was being threatened, I will refrain from using the adjective dude...even though I do not see how it is condescending in any way. I think I have come to an end of posting in response to you and Skunk in any case, since we obviously are not come to agreement. Pax du..err You Adult Grown Human Male. Edit: to put the B in Blix.

[ 01-22-2003, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Skunk: Inbound weapons - well, do the police in your area have no guns at their disposal? What about the army? So why not Iraq?

Seems to me a carring leader would first, buy food for his people and then if something were to be left over, be buying pumps and such that you keep going on about. Not weapons. Get a grip!

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Skunk: quote: Skunk, you are simply unlearned on this issue. The several American vessels patrolling the Iraqi waters catch: 1. Outbound illegal (i.e. against the oil-for-food program) oil, and 2. Inbound weapons All the time!! Every few days!! If they are starving, why's that petty despot sending perfectly good oil out for something other than food and against UN Sanctions????

Do you work for no money? Why do you expect the Iraqi sewage workers, Garbage workers etc to work for no cash? Iraq HAS sell oil outside the sanctions or the entire system will collapse - more civilians will die from sickness and disease if you don't pay these guys (for example).
Inbound weapons - well, do the police in your area have no guns at their disposal? What about the army? So why not Iraq?[/QUOTE]Why not Iraq? Because Saddam invades his neighbors and has no qualms about using chemical/biological weapons in addition to conventional means. After the invasion of Kuwait, and his subsequent defeat, he was refused the right to purchase such items. His continued desire to purchase weapons is what starves his people and their economy.

If Saddam insists on spending his money on illegal items, maybe he should focus on pumps, the supplies for salinization, and the other items you mention as being necessary. He has been quite effective at smuggling, so why doesn't he do that? Because he doesn't want to. He prefers weapons.

Even if you think the conventional weapons are ok, wouldn't it be better if he spent that money on food? You don't need an police force or army to protect a population that died from starvation.

Besides, Iraq isn't without the ability to protect itself. The purpose of leaving Saddam and part of the Iraqi army intact after the Gulf War was to avoid creating a power vacuum in the Middle East by leaving Iraq with enough of a military to protect itself from it's neighbors. At the height of his military power Saddam couldn't withstand the coalition, and since he's not being threatened by his neighbors, what exactly is the purpose of trying for a military build up over the past decade? It isn't what's needed by his country, but it is what he wants.

Skunk, Saddam holds his people hostage, so good hearted people like you will say life the sanctions. He doesn't care if they live or die, or he would spend what he could to feed them. If he'd co-operated after the Gulf War, the sanctions would have already been lifted.

5 extra rations of food for his people to prepare for a possible invasion? Sounds like he's sitting on some supplies, but only feels the need to give it to the civilian population when he hopes they'll fight an urban war for him.

If the sanctions were lifted today, what makes anyone think his focus on spending would change?

[ 01-22-2003, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]