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Old 04-02-2004, 05:14 AM   #41
Chewbacca
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ziroc:
quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
I think the fallujah thing last year was addressed here, but I can't be bothered to search out the posts.

I totally object to using US action as an excuse for killing -- BARBARICALLY -- civilians who are trying to do the right thing and rebuild the country so it can be handed over to the Iraqis.
I agree with you Timber. I will never think of Skunk the same way after reading that post, Skunk. Sorry, it's just a cop-out. [/QUOTE]Well add me to the list of people you look down on, because I, a red-blooded bleeding heart American, agree with Skunk 110%.

I don't think exploring and questioning why the event happened, trying to walk in the peoples shoes on the 'otherside of the topic', is a cop-out.

I do think avoiding some of the answers that have come and have been addressed is a real cop-out.
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Old 04-02-2004, 06:58 AM   #42
The Hierophant
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ziroc:
oh, yeah, It's USA's fault huh? yeh... keep telling yourself that.
and
Quote:

I will never think of Skunk the same way after reading that post, Skunk. Sorry, it's just a cop-out.


I don't think Skunk ever came close to saying it's the USA's fault. I think the point he made was that wholesale violence begets wholesale violence.

There is never simply one side that is at fault for any given conflict situation. The people in that area are responsible for their actions, but is it all that difficult to try and imagine the hatred that is created by coalition actions, indeed by mere coalition presence in this part of the world? A region that never wanted American forces there? A region that has no omnipresent media machine to 'educate' them as to the 'benevolence' of American intentions? A region that revolves around a local tribal, Islamic social system that has been utterly devastated by American influence?

The contractors may have been there to help rebuild the area, but the people there don't know that! And more likely than not, they arn't interested in knowing it! Just as you obviously arn't interested in knowing them! Sometimes I think the superfluous access to information in computerised Western nations is taken for granted. For the people in rural, destitute, bombardment-rutted areas of Iraq there is no information superhighway, no medicine, no food, no money. All that stands are the ruins of a government system that worked, and put food on the table, however meagre. Politically ruthless as it was, The Saddam regime provided order, which has all but disappeared for the people of Fallujah since American forces arrived. The people had towns and villages to live in. And who have the people SEEN WITH THEIR OWN EYES destroying their towns and villages? Who have they observed drop explosives from afar? Take a wee guess.

That's what I think you don't understand Ziroc. You have been saturated with information about the causes, objectives and desired outcomes of this war. For well over a year you have been party to the wondrous propaganda surrounding coalition intentions in Iraq. YOU trust that American forces are there for the good of Iraq. Your mind has been ushered to that conclusion from months upon months of news bulletins, debate and media criticism. The people in towns such as Fallujah have been party to NONE of this, all they know is that their town has been reduced to ruin, and that American forces did it. Regardless of the truth (if there even IS any truth in this god-forsaken diplomatic mess), that is what the people believe. And their hatred, their anger, their pure, unchecked seething rage at having been reduced to paupers by a foreign invader for no clear or apparent reason is enough to drive them to acts of such unrepentant, desperate bloodthirst.

Think on it. The world is not your suburb. The world is not the community you know. Some people, some places, have been brought up with different principles and have experienced things that make them act and behave differently to you, for better or worse...

There are multiple sides to every story, and each side is as complex and valid as the next. There is no righteousness, no truth. Just cause and effect.

And Ziroc, I'm afraid I will always view YOU differently for condemning Skunk on the basis of putting words in his mouth.

[ 04-02-2004, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]
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Old 04-02-2004, 09:24 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
John, the distinction I make is between acts of the military and acts by the population at large. And, in such a discussion, I would exclude Vietnam, because the population there faced a tough decision -- i.e. rat out the VC to the American troops turning your town upside down today, only to face execution and burning of the town by the V.C. tomorrow, and vice versa. Iraqis don't face that dilemma.
Lieutenant Colonel Saad Jasim is reluctant to talk in the open courtyard. He orders his men to bolt the metal door to his small office before he will agree to speak. Outside the brick hut is a large walled compound in which dozens of his armed troops from the Iraqi Civil Defence Corps are barking orders to each other in the bright morning sun. Between them and Falluja's main high street is a vast concrete blast wall, guarded by a handful of extremely anxious defence corps soldiers...

Six weeks ago a gang of well-armed insurgents rampaged through Col Jasim's base and the nearby police station, killing 23 people and releasing dozens of prisoners...

----------------


..."That was wrong [the killings]. It was a mistake, it was against the Islamic Sharia," said Ghazia Mohammed, a schoolteacher queuing in the town centre. Yet even educated, middle-class men like this are deeply angry with the US occupation.

"It is not just a matter of resistance, it is a matter of self-defence because they occupied our state and we should dismiss them," he said. "They destroyed our houses, our stores, they are raiding our families, they don't respect us. How should we accept that? They said they would improve our lives while instead they are fighting us. Is that democracy?"

Abbas al-Hussein, a civil servant from Falluja's education directorate, spoke with foreboding. "Anything could happen in this city from now on.The people feel such injustice. The coalition forces have humiliated people and treated them badly...

Last week the troops launched aggressive raids through one eastern district of Falluja that left at least six Iraqi civilians dead, including an Iraqi cameraman working for America's ABC television. It was enough to convince the people of Falluja there had been no change in the military's approach.
Scared half to death, the security forces lock themselves behind the barricades, The Guardian.

Residents in Falluja appear to think that they are facing this dillema on a personal level

Quote:
Originally posted by Ziroc:
quote:
Originally posted by Skunk:
It's the result of the process of dehumanisation.

When you are used to seeing dead and burnt bodies of friends and loved ones; when your cities have crumbled under the weight of bombs, when there is no work and no food on the table, when bandits rule the night and foreign troops are controlling the little that's left of your lives during the day, it's not inconceivable that the part of humanity that should be appalled by such acts has also been burnt out.

This is a classic example of what temporary insanity looks like - and its our frankenstein.
oh, yeah, It's USA's fault huh? yeh... keep telling yourself that. [/QUOTE]No, it's the war's fault and the resultant economic and security situation.

Falluja not only suffered HEAVILY in the initial action but the war still hasn't finished in that area. And if the privations and suffering of continuing conflict isn't enough, the town has gone from full employment to nearly 100% unemployment as well.

And since security is bad, it has become a neccessity for US troops to be severe in their approach - and that has further inflamed the populace.

At this stage, as far as that town is concerned, the US forces are in an impossible situation. They'll never get the people on their side without major improvements in employment and security and they won't get that without an end to the attacks. And they won't be able to get the attacks to end without the people on their side...
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Old 04-02-2004, 10:42 AM   #44
John D Harris
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Quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
John, the distinction I make is between acts of the military and acts by the population at large. And, in such a discussion, I would exclude Vietnam, because the population there faced a tough decision -- i.e. rat out the VC to the American troops turning your town upside down today, only to face execution and burning of the town by the V.C. tomorrow, and vice versa. Iraqis don't face that dilemma.
Thanks for the clearification TL.

I'm not so sure I could agree. That there is that much of a differance with Vietnam. The area that we currently call Iraq and surrounding areas, is where the "Blood Feud" to the 10th generation was invented. Assasains(sp?) were first seen in the same area, from the small kingdom of Assini or something like that IIRC (I'm to lazy to find out the exact name). So there is a big threat of retaliation for the people. But that is no reason to do what was done a couple of days ago in Iraq.

On the part about worrying if the U.S. troops would turn the their towns upside down, I would agree with you. [img]smile.gif[/img]

The "blood feud " has been a way of life for 1,000's of years. These are the same people that came up with "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" also "the friend of my enemy is my enemy". Since the Summarians nearly 5,000 years ago there has been countless war in the area. They have forgotten more about war then we know, we just got better weapons tech.

But as usual TL we're not that far off for much of a arguement, maybe a little symantics fencing [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 04-02-2004, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]
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Old 04-02-2004, 11:50 AM   #45
John D Harris
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Quote:
Originally posted by Skunk:
No, it's the war's fault and the resultant economic and security situation.

Falluja not only suffered HEAVILY in the initial action but the war still hasn't finished in that area. And if the privations and suffering of continuing conflict isn't enough, the town has gone from full employment to nearly 100% unemployment as well.

And since security is bad, it has become a neccessity for US troops to be severe in their approach - and that has further inflamed the populace.

At this stage, as far as that town is concerned, the US forces are in an impossible situation. They'll never get the people on their side without major improvements in employment and security and they won't get that without an end to the attacks. And they won't be able to get the attacks to end without the people on their side...
That may be a part of it, but Falluja is smack dap in the middle of what is called the Sunni triangle. The Sunnis were the top dogs, and the miniority, They fear an free and equal Iraq, because they know "pay back is hell" and they will get paid back for things some of their people had done as Iraq's rulers. The Sunni's will loose power and no longer be the rulling class, so they know their protection has been removed, or soon will be. The U.S. should gather the Sunni leadership and tell them to knock it off and get these pukes under control, or we'll pull back and let the Shitties have their way with them.
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Old 04-02-2004, 12:40 PM   #46
pritchke
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Arrow

I just remembered something.

Why do we express outrage at this incident? I am guilty as well. [img]graemlins/1disgust.gif[/img]

Where was all our outrage when the US displayed the mutilated bodies of Saddams sons to international media? We felt that they deserved it but did the mutilated bodies need to be placed on display for all to see. We could have just as easily hung them from a tree branch, the message isn't much different. Is the difference in that it was artilliary that mutilated the bodies as opposed to fire, and machetes.

And we cannot forget the pictures of the Canadian soldiers posing with the Somalian teenager that they beat to death. Or the Isreali soldiers who were posing with their dead and mutilated Arab trophies.

It is very odd how we only see Arabs, Iraqis, and muslims doing these things. Yet we forget and turn a blind eye when our own people are guilty of similar things.

Maybe we are over reacting in terms of our outrage. Because as people are we really that different and if placed under similar circumstances can we say we would not act the same.


[ 04-02-2004, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]
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Old 04-02-2004, 02:11 PM   #47
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Shitty situation. Shitty events. No good.

I will make one response, and that was to Skunks introduction of "christian" crusaders, and that is this.

Bush and Blair are supposedly Christian. "God" has been used in rhetoric. Hussein, the PLO, Hamas et al, regard all this as a continuation of the crusades.

Do we imagine, that Iraq was invaded by Christianity? Was spreading Jesus message of hope, love and peace the motive? Or was oil, security, global power games and fear of attack the prime motivators?

The same situation was then as now. The middle east then was the prime strategic gateway to the far east. The Islamic hordes were attacking France (via Spain) and Vienna (via the Balkans) and it was not 3000 years ago, but closer to 1000 years ago.

Then, as now, Jesus name was used as a MOTIVATOR, by rulers, but hardly the cause. Look at today. See the reasons of war today, and see yesterday through the same lens. Please. Take off the antireligious bigotry and see the causes of war for what they are.

Fear, and greed.
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Old 04-02-2004, 04:36 PM   #48
Timber Loftis
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Skunk, thanks for the article about the civil defense guys in Falluja. Maybe they aren't so different.

Yorick, one can argue that capitalism is an outgrowth of Christianity -- specifically protestantism (Max Weber) -- meaning that going over there to take their oil actually IS a continuation of the Crusades. Labelling things as "evil" certainly helps. I know, the argument's a stretch. Never mind me, I'm just over there thinking up bad arguments.
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Old 04-02-2004, 05:56 PM   #49
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
Skunk, thanks for the article about the civil defense guys in Falluja. Maybe they aren't so different.

Yorick, one can argue that capitalism is an outgrowth of Christianity -- specifically protestantism (Max Weber) -- meaning that going over there to take their oil actually IS a continuation of the Crusades. Labelling things as "evil" certainly helps. I know, the argument's a stretch. Never mind me, I'm just over there thinking up bad arguments.
See the smoking thread as too why Jesus was left wing.
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Old 04-03-2004, 01:12 AM   #50
Ziroc
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chewbacca:
quote:
Originally posted by Ziroc:
quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
I think the fallujah thing last year was addressed here, but I can't be bothered to search out the posts.

I totally object to using US action as an excuse for killing -- BARBARICALLY -- civilians who are trying to do the right thing and rebuild the country so it can be handed over to the Iraqis.
I agree with you Timber. I will never think of Skunk the same way after reading that post, Skunk. Sorry, it's just a cop-out. [/QUOTE]Well add me to the list of people you look down on, because I, a red-blooded bleeding heart American, agree with Skunk 110%.

I don't think exploring and questioning why the event happened, trying to walk in the peoples shoes on the 'otherside of the topic', is a cop-out.

I do think avoiding some of the answers that have come and have been addressed is a real cop-out.
[/QUOTE]This is the post I was angery about:

----------
It's the result of the process of dehumanisation.

When you are used to seeing dead and burnt bodies of friends and loved ones; when your cities have crumbled under the weight of bombs, when there is no work and no food on the table, when bandits rule the night and foreign troops are controlling the little that's left of your lives during the day, it's not inconceivable that the part of humanity that should be appalled by such acts has also been burnt out.

This is a classic example of what temporary insanity looks like - and its our frankenstein.
-----------

Skunk makes it out to be like it's OUR entire fault that they were butchered and killed like that, and it's not. If we didn't go over there, and some americans entered--as visitors or something, the chances are they would have been hurt or killed as well. Then, he'd probably say that it's because we posed sanctions on Iraq, and that made them that way.. I'm not saying our forces are perfect, but god, what I saw sickened me.

And I did not say I "look down" on Skunk, I said I look at him in a different way now--not DOWN on. You're reading into things bud.
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