Clerics just as powerful as mages

[Madman-Rogovich]

MY insane fighter cleric of tybboch rules!!! unstoppabble the spells are just a bonus my personal fave of all time

[Eldoran]

As I recall it was posts like these (well with swearing and personal insults) that caused BG Dungeon to close down...

Dundee is right, but lets not fuss and fight... Clerics CAN beat up the mages in the game (especially liches), but the two are not balanced to be going head to head in PvP.

[Yggdrasil]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eldoran:


As I recall it was posts like these (well with swearing and personal insults) that caused BG Dungeon to close down...

Dundee is right, but lets not fuss and fight... Clerics CAN beat up the mages in the game (especially liches), but the two are not balanced to be going head to head in PvP.

---

Agreed...with this final tidbit.

There are simply too many variables in the game to make a clear determination. Situations, playing solo, playing with a party, equipment, spells, abilities, weapon proficiencies, stats, etc. A Mage can have every item and spell available and still get whupped if they don't know what's around the corner. So can a Cleric. Personally, I think having already played the game and knowing your opponent's strengths/weaknesses beforehand describes a certain amount of cheese.

The definition of "powerful" is ill-defined.

[toriuxik]

Clerics can wear Amulet of Power man, geez. Your spells won’t have an effect if the cleric is running around with 85% magic resistance. Can comfortably have almost 100%.

Clerics can’t prepare spells? WTF? Clerics have lots of spells they can cast on themselves to be tougher.

You are dumb! Look at True Sight!

True Sight (Divination)
Level: 6
Range: 0
Duration: 1 turn
Casting Time: 8
Area of Effect: 70' radius
Saving Throw: None

When this spell is cast, an area roughly 70 feet in radius around the caster will be effected. Instantly and once each round for 1 turn after this spell is cast, all hostile illusion/phantasm spells in the area of effect will be dispelled. The spells that are affected by this are: Refected Image, Invisibility, Mirror Image, NON-DETECTION, Improved Invisibility, Shadow Door, Mislead, Project Image, and Simulacrum. The area of effect is roughly a 70' radius around the caster. The target's magic resistance, if any, does not come into effect with this spell. This spell only affects enemies, thus it is unable to dispel the invisibility from a party member.

Oh, and the cleric dons Belt of the Inertial Barrier. 50% magic damage resistance. Armour of Faith adds another 25%, oh no! 75% damage resistance. Those Horrid Wiltings are gonna get laughed off you know. 1-2 damage per level doesn’t amount to quite as much as you were hopping for I think.

Shield of the Archons abosrbs spells, HOLY/UNHOLY WORD is rather fun. Thats no saving throw btw. 1 casting time as well.

Also, could cast Aura of Flaming Death before casting spells. You won’t last very long. Oh, and globe of Blades too. Mages aren’t bad, clerics aren’t bad. It depends on your playing style and preference. Mages are brute idiots, clerics are tricky.

lol, I just feel like arguing lately.

[Worm]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:


Refer to the first page of this thread. The Spell Trigger and Chain Contingency combo is explained in better detail. Ah heck, I will just repeat myself.

Spell Trigger = 3 Lower Resistances

Chain Contingency = 3 Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wiltings

Your Cleric will not be pounding, your Cleric will become a desiccated corpse on the ground.

---

First of all you didn't have to be so damn mean your argueing about a silly game not about morals or values so don't be so ruthless.

If you are assuming that the mage knows about the battle and is allowed to prepare himself via contingency then why cannot the cleric just send a summoned animal to disable the contingency! It is unfair to allow the mage the advantage of preparation but not the cleric! Look, I'm not even going to believe for a second that you played through the whole game with a lower resistance contingency set. The contingencies only are used once you reload from dying or if you have played through the game prior. Yea a mage would kill with the contingency! So what the spell shouldn't have been in the game it is the SINGLE thing mages have that makes them so grand of a solo class. They both equally suck this game is a party game contingencies should of been disabled due to the grossness of the attack. No one uses a contingency on 50% health nope because the good spell is the area effect one and it is always when you see an enemy. I don't think contingencies should get activated upon sighting an enemy. It is too preplanned just because you know the fight is comming up because you recently got your ass kicked. Look, mages do have the advantage because and only because of the chain contingency that is it nothing more aside from that little thing they are totally equal.

[Mitro Jellywadder]

quote:

---

Originally posted by toriuxik:
It depends on your playing style and preference. Mages are brute idiots, clerics are tricky.

---

hehehe...I think you mixed up the mages and clerics.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Worm:
It is unfair to allow the mage the advantage of preparation but not the cleric!

---

That is the specifics of the class, nobody is giving the mage the unfair advantage. It just happens to be part of his arsenal.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Worm:
Look, I'm not even going to believe for a second that you played through the whole game with a lower resistance contingency set. The contingencies only are used once you reload from dying or if you have played through the game prior. Yea a mage would kill with the contingency!

---

No, but once I gained chain contingency, it was set to (25% hitpoints) target: nearest enemy 3 x Abi's Horrid. I'm not saying I never used the 3 Lower Resistance contingency, but like you said, only when I knew a battle where I needed it was coming. My contingency was set to stoneskin at the same 25% of my hitpoints.


Okay. Both are powerful, but (you saw that coming didn't you ) if both a mage and a cleric (of high levels) got any equipment they wanted, the mage would win 99% of the time. Spell trap soaks up 30 levels of spells cast at them. Example: 15th level mage. A spell sequencer loaded with three second level spells and a minor sequencer loaded with the same spell could do a total of 10d4 for a total of 6 rounds, that's 60-240 points of damage. Not to mention, it could possible disrupt your attempts to cast spells or even to neutralize the acid (exactly what spell does that?) and while your attempting to neutralize it, your cleric is still going to absorb the next spell too.

Blade barrier is nice, but it would only eat through one stoneskin per round. Not quite devastating is it?

The major problem with pitting the two against each other is the lack of spell protection removers with the cleric class. Mages can strip any protections, while clerics can't.

Ahhh..My vote stays with the mages. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[Worm]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mitro Jellywadder:


No, but once I gained chain contingency, it was set to (25% hitpoints) target: nearest enemy 3 x Abi's Horrid. I'm not saying I never used the 3 Lower Resistance contingency, but like you said, only when I knew a battle where I needed it was coming. My contingency was set to stoneskin at the same 25% of my hitpoints.


Okay. Both are powerful, but (you saw that coming didn't you ) if both a mage and a cleric (of high levels) got any equipment they wanted, the mage would win 99% of the time. Spell trap soaks up 30 levels of spells cast at them. Example: 15th level mage. A spell sequencer loaded with three second level spells and a minor sequencer loaded with the same spell could do a total of 10d4 for a total of 6 rounds, that's 60-240 points of damage. Not to mention, it could possible disrupt your attempts to cast spells or even to neutralize the acid (exactly what spell does that?) and while your attempting to neutralize it, your cleric is still going to absorb the next spell too.

Blade barrier is nice, but it would only eat through one stoneskin per round. Not quite devastating is it?

---

But it still is matter of circumstance. Mages have waaayyy too many protection spells I can't stand it! I think a cleric if he played it cool sent in a group of summoned skeletons to disable contingencies of course the mage would have to cast a death spell which he certainly wouldn't have because it wouldn't hurt the cleric the mage wants to do damage he can't cause death but even if he did he would have to take time to cast it but THAT is when a cool headed cleric would attack. Eventually the undead would fall but as the mage was combating them the cleric could ... do a number of combative things energy disks, wand of the heavens, more summoning, or ranged weapons. It has been eons since my last play; but, doesn't greater restoration cast in like a fraction of a second?

But chances are the Wizard would of put on his God mode and it wouldn't matter no magic, weapons, magic weapons would effect him it is that simple. Wizards do have the damage down but as in most situations solid planing and strategy will succed which is precisely why this is an argument based on the circumstances and with unlimited circumstances there is no true answer each one could win but then again each one could lose. There is no definate truth with this matter. Just let the stinking thing go it really doesn't matter.

[Mitro Jellywadder]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Worm:
But it still is matter of circumstance. Mages have waaayyy too many protection spells I can't stand it!

---

[img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] I know what you mean. That's the major swinging point for me. If they didn't have that many protections, a cleric would be able to mop the floor with them.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Worm:
It has been eons since my last play; but, doesn't greater restoration cast in like a fraction of a second?

---

Pretty much. 3 casting time is pretty quick. I wasn't sure if there was a spell to counter it, but apparently there is. Would that remove the acid, or just heal the cleric?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Worm:
There is no definate truth with this matter. Just let the stinking thing go it really doesn't matter.

---

I agree, no definite truth. As far as letting it go, this debate has actually given me a new respect for clerics, so I can't just let it go. [img]smile.gif[/img] I never used them for anything other than support members, maybe I'll just try to solo one and see how far I get.

[Dundee Slaytern]

quote:

---

Originally posted by toriuxik:
Clerics can wear Amulet of Power man, geez. Your spells won’t have an effect if the cleric is running around with 85% magic resistance. Can comfortably have almost 100%.

Oh momma! 85% magic resistance. Heavens, whatever shall we do? Refer to Spell Trigger( 3 Lower Resistances), now your magic resistances is -5%. Yes?

Clerics can’t prepare spells? WTF? Clerics have lots of spells they can cast on themselves to be tougher.

And by the time that they are done casting all of them, the Mage would have beaten Improved Demogorgan, smoked a cigar, did the lamba and polished his quarterstaff. If you want to talk about speed, the Mage is much, much faster.

You are dumb! Look at True Sight!
True Sight (Divination)
Level: 6
Range: 0
Duration: 1 turn
Casting Time: 8
Area of Effect: 70' radius
Saving Throw: None
When this spell is cast, an area roughly 70 feet in radius around the caster will be effected. Instantly and once each round for 1 turn after this spell is cast, all hostile illusion/phantasm spells in the area of effect will be dispelled. The spells that are affected by this are: Refected Image, Invisibility, Mirror Image, NON-DETECTION, Improved Invisibility, Shadow Door, Mislead, Project Image, and Simulacrum. The area of effect is roughly a 70' radius around the caster. The target's magic resistance, if any, does not come into effect with this spell. This spell only affects enemies, thus it is unable to dispel the invisibility from a party member.

Cloak of Non-Detection, what are you going to do about it? Oh wait, pardon me, whatever am I thinking? I can just cast Time Stop while you cast your True Sight.

Oh, and the cleric dons Belt of the Inertial Barrier. 50% magic damage resistance. Armour of Faith adds another 25%, oh no! 75% damage resistance. Those Horrid Wiltings are gonna get laughed off you know. 1-2 damage per level doesn’t amount to quite as much as you were hopping for I think.

Well, if you can survive that, bravo for you; but I can always fall back on Time Stop.

Shield of the Archons abosrbs spells, HOLY/UNHOLY WORD is rather fun. Thats no saving throw btw. 1 casting time as well.

And after that? It will not kill the Mage outright. Melee attacks are out the question, and you will need some recovery time to cast again. Shield of the Archons will not protect you from Imprisonment by the way and well placed area-of-effect spells.

Also, could cast Aura of Flaming Death before casting spells. You won’t last very long. Oh, and globe of Blades too. Mages aren’t bad, clerics aren’t bad. It depends on your playing style and preference. Mages are brute idiots, clerics are tricky.

If you can cast Aura of Flaming Death, that means that I would have casted Time Stop already. The results for the Cleric is not going to be pretty; and Globe of Blades just take way too long to cast.

---

[Dundee Slaytern]

Oh, and Mitro. Clerics can remove spell protections.

Dispel Magic.

Just for the record again, allow me to repeat myself in case some people do not read my earlier posts.

Clerics do not suck, and they have a place in the game. They help other members become more powerful and provide aid whenever it is needed.

Clerics however, are not the masters of offensive/defensive magic.

In fact, if you read my first post. I have already mentioned the reasons why Mages have an edge over Clerics.

There is a reason why there are more famous/infamous kicka** Mages in the D&D world than Clerics. [img]smile.gif[/img]