War.

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: The short answer is that we could not have tried very hard, in just 28 days. If we were serious about other approaches, we would not have started the military approach so soon.

Dio,I've seen you claim this before. On what do you base your assessment that we didn't 'try very hard'? Do you know what our intelligence community did or didn't do? It seems to me that WE are not really in a position to make such a judgement call, as we don't have all the necessary information. Our President does. Whether we would take the same action, knowing what he knows, is a moot point, as WE weren't elected President.

Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Dio,I've seen you claim this before. On what do you base your assessment that we didn't 'try very hard'? Do you know what our intelligence community did or didn't do? It seems to me that WE are not really in a position to make such a judgement call, as we don't have all the necessary information. Our President does. Whether we would take the same action, knowing what he knows, is a moot point, as WE weren't elected President. Cloudy

On the very short length of time, Cloudy.

Such things take time, which obviously Bush wasn't prepared to do. I think he is taking hasty action that will backfire in the long term, in the same way that his father before him was hasty in resorting to military force in the Gulf War (and which of course has backfired on us, producing among other things Bin Laden's intense hatred which led to the the current crisis. It was reportedly the US deployment to the middle east and our actions in the Gulf War which turned Bin Laden against us in the first place)

[skywalker]

I heard on CNN, that we are not getting the vocal "buy in" over this attack from the Arab Countries that we wanted. In some places it is thought to be mostly an American/British Alliance against Afghanistan. This is not good!

Mark

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: On the very short length of time, Cloudy. Such things take time, which obviously Bush wasn't prepared to do. I think he is taking hasty action that will backfire in the long term, in the same way that his father before him was hasty in resorting to military force in the Gulf War (and which of course has backfired on us, producing among other things Bin Laden's intense hatred which led to the the current crisis. It was reportedly the US deployment to the middle east and our actions in the Gulf War which turned Bin Laden against us in the first place)

Well, Dio, I still submit that we cannot make that call. We just don't HAVE all the needed facts and info. I say that if you haven't got all that, you cannot claim too little time was taken. For all we know, there was compelling evidence that a strike was needed now. Maybe not. I'm not saying your conclusion is necessarily wrong, just that without all the facts it is speculation and conjecture.

Cloudy



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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Well, Dio, I still submit that we cannot make that call. We just don't HAVE all the needed facts and info. I say that if you haven't got all that, you cannot claim too little time was taken. For all we know, there was compelling evidence that a strike was needed now. Maybe not. I'm not saying your conclusion is necessarily wrong, just that without all the facts it is speculation and conjecture. Cloudy

Well, obviously none of us is omniscient, Cloudy, including our leaders. But think about it for a second. I very much doubt there was any such compelling reason, (what could it have been, after all?) save the general feeling that we must strike back quickly. As I have stated before, that feeling is primarily one of fear and anger which results in impatience and hasty decision making.

Besides, what you are advocating is dangerous indeed, namely blind faith in our leaders to have hidden information and to do the right thing accordingly. That very same argument has been dragged up in every single war we have ever been in, only when the dust settles afterwards does the truth come out that there was no such hidden wisdom, but more often imperfect error.



[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 10-09-2001).]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by skywalker: I heard on CNN, that we are not getting the vocal "buy in" over this attack from the Arab Countries that we wanted. In some places it is thought to be mostly an American/British Alliance against Afghanistan. This is not good! Mark

My ex-wifes best friend is in the Australian Navy. They are being deployed.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[skywalker]

Originally posted by Yorick: My ex-wifes best friend is in the Australian Navy. They are being deployed.

I hope it didn't sound like I said there were not other nations involved. I was just trying to point out about the perceptions of the Arab States. I do know that Canada has sent 1000 troops and some ships. I think the news orgs seem to play up US/Britain and not mention all the other nations that deserve the recognition!

It really was a comment on the perceptions of some other people.

Mark

[Yorick]

Hey, how's this: I heard that some phone calls from a Bin Laden 2IC organising the you know what were made from the Sydney suburb I grew up in.....

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Well, obviously none of us is omniscient, Cloudy, including our leaders. But think about it for a second. I very much doubt there was any such compelling reason, (what could it have been, after all?) save the general feeling that we must strike back quickly. As I have stated before, that feeling is primarily one of fear and anger which results in impatience and hasty decision making. Besides, what you are advocating is dangerous indeed, namely blind faith in our leaders to have hidden information and to do the right thing accordingly. That very same argument has been dragged up in every single war we have ever been in, only when the dust settles afterwards does the truth come out that there was no such hidden wisdom, but more often imperfect error. [This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 10-09-2001).]

I think, Dio, that I shall simply let this go. Obviously we are on different wavelengths here and I see neither of us is convinced to move an inch one way or the other.

I do believe though, that blind faith in oneself is equally in error.

At this point, I'm almost ready to just sit back and wait. Seems to me that's all we can do, unless you advocate chaining ourselves to the Enterprise or a tommahawk missile in protest?!

Just for clarity's sake- that last bit is very tongue in cheek...

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."