05-29-2003, 04:43 PM | #41 | |
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
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Quote:
But I don't see anything wrong with people writing uber or pronouncing it in an English (or any other language) way. People often take foreign words and then adjust them to the rules of their own language. As far as I know there is no "ü" ("ue") sound in English, and some people probably can't even pronounce it properly. I'm an example of one of those. [img]tongue.gif[/img] So you shouldn't be too upset because of that. Don't you, in Germany, use any English words when you speak with your friends? Like some bad words for example (since those seem to be really popular in other countries [img]tongue.gif[/img] ). Well I doubt you pronounce it in a really English (or American) way when you do. [img]tongue.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]I don't know about the Deutsche but the Irish say "Fohk". |
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05-29-2003, 04:47 PM | #42 | |
Red Dragon
Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Cologne, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
Age: 52
Posts: 1,517
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Quote:
On a more general level:I am fully aware that words of foreign origins that have been adopted into a language tend to quickly take on a life of their own with regard to their meaning/usage and eventually also with regard to their pronunciation and spelling. And that is of course a process that is constantly happening with many foreign words in most modern languages and one that has been happening for centuries. For that reason you are absolutely right, there are constantly lots of English words, in particular, that are being "imported" into German. But nowadays usually the original spelling and pronunciation is being preserved. And I prefer it that way. Why? Because foreign words in a language can serve as bridge to their original language, give you an idea how it sounds and even some basic notion how it works. But they can, of course, only serve that function as long as their foreign origin remains recognizable. I'll give you a practical example: the French expression for wallet "portemonnaie" has been in use in German for ages, but its original French spelling and pronunciation have been preserved, so that every German first grader who learns to spell it at the same time also learns the French words "la monnaie" (money) and "porter" (to carry). But much more significant in my opinion, he/she gets an idea that there is world outside German and Germany that sounds, looks and smells very different! And that is a lesson that one cannot learn early enough.Very unfortunately, there was an orthography reform in Germany a couple of years ago as part of which the spelling of many foreign words of longstanding use was "Germanized". Needless to say, I am/was fervently opposed to that part of the reform.
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So long !<br /><br />R³ aka \"The Ramonster\"(thanks Sir Tainly) - proud to be the official spokesman for the most noble Lady Bilqis, Desert Rose of Ironworks - equally proud to be Moiraine\'s \"permanent advocate\" ! - relaunched edition - |
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05-29-2003, 05:13 PM | #43 |
Emerald Dragon
Join Date: January 3, 2002
Location: From Slovenia, in Sweden
Age: 42
Posts: 931
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To Yorick: Do you mean in Irish or Irish English? If it's Irish English then it's still some kind of a dialect so it's correct. [img]smile.gif[/img] The German teenagers, when they speak to their friends, probably say it differently than any other native speakers of English. Probably. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
To Ramon de Ramon Y Ramon: Yes, but you have to keep in mind that the English speaking people, for example, don't have the letter "ü" in their alphabeth and they don't even have that sound in their pronunciation. [img]smile.gif[/img] So naturally they adjust the word to their language. Imagine how it would be if you got, for example, a Slovene word with some new letters, and then you'd all of a sudden have to learn the new letter and the new sound. It's not that easy for people to learn new sounds, believe me. I've tried to teach Americans to say the Slovene "r", and tried to teach some Spanish people how to say "snail" in Slovene - but all that came out was spit. [img]smile.gif[/img] I know I have difficulties with the German ü; it takes a lot of effort to pronounce it properly, so I usually just say "u" with a bit of the "ü" sound in it... [img]tongue.gif[/img] So it's really difficult for average people to think of every new word, and where it comes from, and all the new sounds and letters, etc. It's just easier to anglicise it, or adapt it to whatever language you speak. Though you're right, words do go into language and some do keep their form. But which words do is really nobody's business but the speakers' of that language. [img]smile.gif[/img] They decide (or, even better, the language itself decides) what form is more useful, and what form fits its purpose more. You can try to put rules on language, but sooner or later they'll be broken if the language is less effective because of those rules. PS: I just thought it would be fun to mention - my name (Spela) sounds really different that the English language, so when I'm in a country, or in a company where everybody speaks English, I have a really difficult time switching from one language to the other. So if I'm speaking English and somebody new comes along and asks what my name is, I have to think a bit before I say my name because its sound is so much different that English... Switching from one language, and from one kinds of sounds to the others is difficult. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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05-29-2003, 05:18 PM | #44 | ||
Red Dragon
Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Cologne, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
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Quote:
Quote:
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So long !<br /><br />R³ aka \"The Ramonster\"(thanks Sir Tainly) - proud to be the official spokesman for the most noble Lady Bilqis, Desert Rose of Ironworks - equally proud to be Moiraine\'s \"permanent advocate\" ! - relaunched edition - |
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05-29-2003, 08:16 PM | #45 |
Hathor
Join Date: February 18, 2002
Location: Vienna
Age: 43
Posts: 2,248
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As for pronounciation again
It IS alike the English "deuce" from Merrian-Webster online Main Entry: deuce Pronunciation: 'düs also 'dyüs Function: noun Etymology: Middle French deus two, from Latin duos, accusative masculine of duo two -- more at TWO Date: 15th century 1 a (1) : the face of a die that bears two spots (2) : a playing card bearing an index number two b : a throw of the dice yielding two points 2 : a tie in tennis after each side has scored 40 requiring two consecutive points by one side to win 3 [obsolete English deuce bad luck] a : DEVIL, DICKENS -- used chiefly as a mild oath check out the audio pronounciation on their site!
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05-30-2003, 02:14 AM | #46 |
Jack Burton
Join Date: November 10, 2001
Location: Bathurst & Orange, in constant flux
Age: 37
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The following are codes which can be typed directly into a post, and will display the right characters (note that they ARE case sensitive). These work better than the alt-codes, which can display break bars on some systems.
ä = ä Ä = Ä ë = ë Ë = Ë ü = ü Ü = Ü Anyone want any other characters ?? [img]smile.gif[/img] |
05-30-2003, 09:24 AM | #47 |
Red Dragon
Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Cologne, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
Age: 52
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Sorry, Faceman, but I beg to keep differing: your earlier post had me doubting if the pronunciation of "deuce" I remembered, mostly from watching tennis matches , was correct, so that I turned to Babylon which also has got an audio feature. It reaffirmed that the pronunciation I had remembered was the correct one.
After you posted again, I started to contemplate that there might be two substantially different versions of the pronunciation of "deuce" (similar to "either" maybe), but what I heard when I checked out the link to the Merrian- Webster's site you had provided was identical to what I had heard at Babylon, which again, sorry, to my ears at least, does sound like "dooze", hence does not contain a sound similar to the German "ü". Maybe I need a hearing aid. [img]smile.gif[/img] [ 05-30-2003, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Ramon de Ramon y Ramon ]
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So long !<br /><br />R³ aka \"The Ramonster\"(thanks Sir Tainly) - proud to be the official spokesman for the most noble Lady Bilqis, Desert Rose of Ironworks - equally proud to be Moiraine\'s \"permanent advocate\" ! - relaunched edition - |
05-30-2003, 09:57 AM | #48 |
Jack Burton
Join Date: March 1, 2001
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I pronounce 'deuce' as 'juice'
How lucky we are that here on IW, English is the lingua franca!! (to koine a phrase)
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05-30-2003, 10:04 AM | #49 | |
Red Dragon
Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Cologne, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
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Quote:
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So long !<br /><br />R³ aka \"The Ramonster\"(thanks Sir Tainly) - proud to be the official spokesman for the most noble Lady Bilqis, Desert Rose of Ironworks - equally proud to be Moiraine\'s \"permanent advocate\" ! - relaunched edition - |
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05-30-2003, 10:35 AM | #50 |
Hathor
Join Date: February 18, 2002
Location: Vienna
Age: 43
Posts: 2,248
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well then it's not at all an "ü".
The m-w audio doesn't quite sound like an "ü" but gets close at least for me (maybe I need hearing aid ) All I can say that it is somewhat similar to the pronounciation of "Y" (called Ypsilon in German, pronounced üpsilon ) befor consonants in most languages. NOT the "Y" as in English "young" or "Yemen" which would be the German "J" ("jung" und "Jemen") but as in Ytterbium, Yggdrasil (someone help me with some easier words [img]graemlins/beheaded.gif[/img] )
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