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Old 07-18-2008, 11:19 AM   #31
Yorick
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Default Re: Gay/Lesbian/Homosexual pride parades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_the_quack View Post
You're welcome to your opinion Cerek, but I have to disagree on your thoughts that sexuality is a learned behaviour.
Hi Dave, I have agree with Cerek. When I came out of my Mum's womb, I wasn't ready to go poking either females OR males. My sexuality DEVELOPED as I grew. There will always be nature/nurture arguments, and perhaps sexuality has elements of both. But being born with a predisposition is not the same thing as being "born homosexual".

Additionally, what about bisexuals? There's certainly choices in bisexuality.

Sexuality is developed through myriad small choices, observation/imitation, experimentation, and, as with plants and the sun, influenced by love: lack of it, where it comes from etc.


Quote:
I certainly don't choose my sexuality, but I do choose not to let others dictate how I should live my life by what is inherently right or wrong in their eyes.
Well I choose to "let others dictate how I should live my life by what is inherently right or wrong in their eyes."

It's called: RELATIONSHIP. I choose to self-limit myself and change aspects of my behaviour so that my significant other is not hurt. We constantly live by other's dictates if we choose to live in community. What you're suggesting is that you are an island. Alone in the world, doing what you please regardless of who it hurts or inconveniences.


Quote:
I also disagree when you say that sexual desires and impulses can be controlled by adults - unless by the term 'control' you mean whether or not you act on them.
Controlling desire is something that people in committed relationships do all the time. It involves not acting on them yes, but it more importantly involves NOT ENTERTAINING A THOUGHT. It is choosing to direct ones focus.

On a smaller level, we may do it with food. I became a vegetarian because eating meat what hazardous to my health. I changed my desire to the point where, through association, meat now seems distasteful and boring to me.

Similarly I am now married. I had to change my "radar" so to speak to mentally stop the way I was thinking if I were to have any hope of changing my actions.

It's a proven fact that we can control our subconscious rather than be controlled by it, and at the mercy of any shift in fancy, feeling or emotion. Actors who "fall in love" with their leading ladies is further evidence of this, as what they are speaking and acting influences how they are perceiving and feeling reality.

In short, if you say "i love you" enough times, and act like you love a person, feelings grow. Like a "little engine that could" situation.

Commitment in relationships proves we have control over the direction of our desire.

Quote:
Having said that, I'm still not sure where you're trying to go with this comment. Is is that homosexuals choose to be gay and don't have to be because there is another option? Seeing as how I have absolutely no attraction to females in the slightest that option for me could only be celibacy, and to me that just simply isn't an option. I think most people would agree you cannot control those of whom you have a sexual and emotional attraction towards. One doesn't choose to fall in love, it just happens. If it's forced it's not love.
Love, true love involves choice Dave. The "feeling" of love (infatuation) comes and goes in a relationship. Sometimes strong, sometimes gone altogether, then back again. But true love has choice. True love is what allows you to choose to forgive a person, to open your heart to the possibility of the feeling of love growing.
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Old 07-20-2008, 03:55 AM   #32
Dave_the_quack
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Crazed Silly Re: Gay/Lesbian/Homosexual pride parades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorick View Post
Hi Dave, I have agree with Cerek. When I came out of my Mum's womb, I wasn't ready to go poking either females OR males. My sexuality DEVELOPED as I grew. There will always be nature/nurture arguments, and perhaps sexuality has elements of both. But being born with a predisposition is not the same thing as being "born homosexual".
Hi back, Yorick. Yes - my sexuality has grown as I have. Just like my bones. And yet I couldn't dictate how my bones were going to end up, just like my lack of control over where I'd end up with my sexual orientation.

Quote:
Additionally, what about bisexuals? There's certainly choices in bisexuality.
I'm not bisexual, so I can't comment on the choices they may or may not make. I also think it's a completely different kettle of fish (apples and oranges, etc) as the person has the capability to 'swing' either way. In my opinion it doesn't matter who they choose in the end as their partner, as long as they end up happy. Who knows - perhaps your wife may be bisexual. Perhaps my future partner will be. I certainly won't be limiting myself from the pool of people who fall into this category, at any rate. Nor will I judge them. Seeing as neither of us are an expert in this area, perhaps we should leave this be? I'm certainly no expert so I won't be commenting further on this point.

Quote:
Well I choose to "let others dictate how I should live my life by what is inherently right or wrong in their eyes."

It's called: RELATIONSHIP. I choose to self-limit myself and change aspects of my behaviour so that my significant other is not hurt. We constantly live by other's dictates if we choose to live in community. What you're suggesting is that you are an island. Alone in the world, doing what you please regardless of who it hurts or inconveniences.
I can see your point, but on the main I disagree, Yorick. At a high level, you are who you are, and personally I don't like to surround myself with people that do not or cannot take me for who I am. I have many friends who may dislike a specific personality trait about me, and vice versa, but we learn to tolerate, not change each other. I imagine the things you are talking about fall under the category of things you don't mind altering to appease others. (i.e. withholding from farting/burping, cussing, blowing nose at the table, to name a few ). Again, there is a choice involved.

I consider my sexuality something I cannot change, like my skin colour, height etc. Nor do I believe I should HAVE to if indeed I had this choice you seem to think I do. And come on.. an island? Way to overexaggerate my comment for dramatic effect. You may as well have just come out and called me a sociopath. Cheers!

Quote:
Controlling desire is something that people in committed relationships do all the time. It involves not acting on them yes, but it more importantly involves NOT ENTERTAINING A THOUGHT. It is choosing to direct ones focus.
Sorry Yorick. I do not agree with dealing in absolutes - "not entertaining a thought" seems impossible to me. Individual thoughts come and go all the time, but I control if I share or act on them. We'll have to agree to disagree here.

Quote:
Commitment in relationships proves we have control over the direction of our desire.
I think this comment needs further refinement before it is completely accurate. I'm sorry, but you don't wake up in the morning and think "today I'm going to desire FEMALE genitalia instead".


Quote:
Love, true love involves choice Dave. The "feeling" of love (infatuation) comes and goes in a relationship. Sometimes strong, sometimes gone altogether, then back again. But true love has choice. True love is what allows you to choose to forgive a person, to open your heart to the possibility of the feeling of love growing.
Yes Yorick, love does involve choice. But again I feel like you're insinuating you have complete control over the situation. Just because "True Love" involves some level of choice (i.e. choosing not to see a person because they are no good for you, or knowing it just will not work in the long run so you end it early, or giving someone a second chance), does not mean you choose attraction, chemistry, etc.

I'm sorry for being a part in what seems a hijack of this thread everyone!
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Old 07-20-2008, 07:55 AM   #33
johnny
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Default Re: Gay/Lesbian/Homosexual pride parades

Here's my two cents....personally i don't think gay pride parades are a smart thing to do. Gays have been struggling so hard and so long to get equal treatment and rights, and now that they more or less have accomplished that, manifestations like these will put them right back in a corner where they don't really wanna be, especially not in this day and age, where religeous zealots are preaching to drop gays off appartmentbuildings head first. Why come up with freakshows like parades, or worse....gay olympics? If i were gay, and a good athlete, i would definitely not want to participate in something like the gay olympics, but much rather in the real deal, where you can gain respect instead of disgust. I've been in Amsterdam prior to the first ever gay olympics, and bumping into guys sucking eachothers cocks right outside a bar in broad daylight isn't something i'd like to be reminded of, and has nothing to do with sportsmanship. I have pretty liberal views on a lot of things, but that's where i draw the line.

Being gay is fine and all, but i can't imagine why anyone would want to draw that kind of attention to themselves, especially not when there's still so many gayhating people outthere. This just fuels their cause and angers them even more.
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Old 07-20-2008, 08:14 AM   #34
Variol (Farseer) Elmwood
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Default Re: Gay/Lesbian/Homosexual pride parades

Boy oh boy,
I really didn't know where this would lead. Perhaps I should have thought a little more about it.

I think it's fair to say that it is "abnormal" at the least. If I take to extremes, I could say if we were all gay, the human race would be extinct and we would not be here and able to discuss it.


Whether we take creation spin on it, or the evolution theory, neither fits the homosexual model (for lack of a better word).

Now, can I, should I, do I hate the person for being this way, absolutely not! But I hate the act.

Let me put another perspective on it. This may come across as Christian (which I am, so how can I do otherwise), or it may even be a worldly perspective:

Lets take a rapist, or a mass murderer, or even a pedophile. I think we can all agree these are not "normal" behaviours. I'm sure we have all seen documentaries on some, or all of these conditions. Some people love to kill, some love to rape and others love children in a very wrong way.

What it comes down to is, how people act on these behaviours. Is it simply ok to say "that's the way I am" or "that's my right". Yes, I know the argument: "I'm not hurting anyone". I would argue that in both the physical and emotional sense.

Here's one that I, and I'm sure many others can relate to:
I've been married for eight years. Just because I now have a ring around my finger, doesn't mean that my sexual desires for other females is turned off. I think many men and women say that, "they never look another man, or woman" now that they are married. I think it's true in a few cases, but in most I would think it's not completely true. But, how do I/we act on it. Do we suppress these feelings or emotions, or do we act on them?

I feel it better to suppress them. I use prayer; it works very well for me and it must be better than electroshock therapy.

I somewhat agree that Dave can not help how he feels. I do feel that he can control the feelings and whether he acts on them. Society however, has said that he does not need to.
That's the choice we all have to make, regardless of what it may be. As a Christian, I choose to live within the confines of how the Bible tells me to be. I fail every day, but I continue to try. Others may do the same, or similar and not care about what the Bible says. Still others just do what they want and don't care about he consequences, regardless of who may be hurt in the process.

As Dave said, he can't help the way he feels: someone else said how can you be proud of being gay, when it's just the way you are. I guess it's like me parading in a white pride parade. That would be stupid, given that I can't really be anything else, given the homosexual argument.

The bottom line for me is that they at least call the parade a "gay" or whatever, pride parade, but not just Halifax pride, because I'm straight and proud of my city.
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Last edited by Variol (Farseer) Elmwood; 07-20-2008 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 07-20-2008, 07:26 PM   #35
Yorick
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Default Re: Gay/Lesbian/Homosexual pride parades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_the_quack View Post
Hi back, Yorick. Yes - my sexuality has grown as I have. Just like my bones. And yet I couldn't dictate how my bones were going to end up, just like my lack of control over where I'd end up with my sexual orientation.
Actually you can shape the growth of your bones.
-I knew a guy in Singapore with a flatten skull at the back because he slept on a tiled floor as a child.
-Chinese used to bind womens feet, distorting the bown growth.
-The long necked women of south east Asia stretched their necks unbelievable amounts through adding metal rings.
-People who spend their lives on horseback can become "bowlegged".
-What you eat: calcium etc can make bones stronger or weaker.
-Your posture and diet in life can prevent or bring on osteoporosis, and warp the bones in the back.

You have more control over the way your mental pathways progress than you realise. Those of us aware of such control seek to avoid being a "slave to desire", which can lead to drug addiction, entertainment addiction, alcoholism, co-dependency or other such misfortunes.

Self control - delaying gratification - is a key personality trait many of us fail to develop fully. I know I still seek to enhance this part of my life. Self control starts in the mind. We can obsess over things or put them out of our mind, no matter how painful this may be.

Of course some of us have greater aptitude for this than others, which chemical imbalances also play a part. It doesn't negate what I'm saying. What we choose to entertain in our minds can dictate the growth of particular desires.



Quote:
I'm not bisexual, so I can't comment on the choices they may or may not make. I also think it's a completely different kettle of fish (apples and oranges, etc) as the person has the capability to 'swing' either way. In my opinion it doesn't matter who they choose in the end as their partner, as long as they end up happy. Who knows - perhaps your wife may be bisexual. Perhaps my future partner will be. I certainly won't be limiting myself from the pool of people who fall into this category, at any rate. Nor will I judge them. Seeing as neither of us are an expert in this area, perhaps we should leave this be? I'm certainly no expert so I won't be commenting further on this point.
I've dated three bisexual women, one of whom, after I knew her became a lesbian for 10 years, and was for all intents and purposes "gay" before switching back. The others were briefly lesbian before I dated them, and have since been heterosexual.

I think my experiences are valid and I have every right to comment on my observations of my personal experiences.

I also personally know a number of gay man who were once straight, and straight men who are now no longer gay.

The reality is, huge amounts of the gay population have been straight, or will be straight, indicating that at least for those people, choice plays a factor in determining orientation.

Quote:
I can see your point, but on the main I disagree, Yorick. At a high level, you are who you are, and personally I don't like to surround myself with people that do not or cannot take me for who I am. I have many friends who may dislike a specific personality trait about me, and vice versa, but we learn to tolerate, not change each other. I imagine the things you are talking about fall under the category of things you don't mind altering to appease others. (i.e. withholding from farting/burping, cussing, blowing nose at the table, to name a few ). Again, there is a choice involved.
I am talking about fundamental character issues that may damage the other person. While I too value unconditional acceptance, I work to change aspects of my CHARACTER which hurt those I love. Who I am is not some immutable stone being that cannot change. There is an essential core "soul" but what I love, what I hate, what I desire and what I fear are not set in stone.

The point I was making was in regard to fidelity. I may "love women". Love the variety. Love the chase. Desire to experience all the wonderful plethora of different kind of female bodies there are. This may be a pretty definitive part of who I am. A "ladies man".

But if I am to be in a committed relationship, that part of me is incompatible with committed monogamy. It has to die. I have to change if I am to have what I really need, precisely because of the effect of my behaviour on my partner.

I control it therefore with focus. It's summer, a sexy woman strolls past, with bare back. If I turn and gaze longingly, the electro-pathways in my brain connect in a certain way, reinforced with every subsequent reaction to the sight I am desiring.

To have any hope of fidelity, I need to resist the urge to look back. To control my reactions rather than be controlled by them. In time, the mentalpathways realign, and reinforce a different response set. We see this in anger management, in healing depression, in overcoming self-loathing etc etc.

Quote:

I consider my sexuality something I cannot change, like my skin colour, height etc. Nor do I believe I should HAVE to if indeed I had this choice you seem to think I do. And come on.. an island? Way to overexaggerate my comment for dramatic effect. You may as well have just come out and called me a sociopath. Cheers!
Well my sexuality is as I said changeable and dependent on my actions, not my desires. Depending on what I do, I can be celibate, adulterous, homosexual, monogamous, polygamous, heterosexual. I can desire any of these sexual states, but the definitions are defined by actions. If I have control over my actions, I can change my sexuality.


Quote:
Sorry Yorick. I do not agree with dealing in absolutes - "not entertaining a thought" seems impossible to me. Individual thoughts come and go all the time, but I control if I share or act on them. We'll have to agree to disagree here.
I do it all the time man. If I entertain offense for example, I become bitter, hard, angry and cold. I have to "not entertain a thought" if I am to be loving, forgiving, happy and passionate.

If I can do it in one area, I can do it in others. What we choose to focus on shapes our life.

Quote:
I think this comment needs further refinement before it is completely accurate. I'm sorry, but you don't wake up in the morning and think "today I'm going to desire FEMALE genitalia instead".
I don't desire female genitalia. I desire the love and affection of one person. A single person. I have repressed desires for other people so that I can increase the desire for that single person, which gets stronger and stronger as the years progress. It is not her sex which makes her special to me, but who she is. She is an amazing human being, and I desire her conversation, her hugs, her presence, her admiration, her touch, her softness, her skin, her voice, her tears, her laughter, her inventiveness, her passions, her music, her cares. She is so much more than just "female genitalia".



Quote:
Yes Yorick, love does involve choice. But again I feel like you're insinuating you have complete control over the situation. Just because "True Love" involves some level of choice (i.e. choosing not to see a person because they are no good for you, or knowing it just will not work in the long run so you end it early, or giving someone a second chance), does not mean you choose attraction, chemistry, etc.
It is a well known fact that a man often becomes more physically attractive to a women further into the relationship. (Just look at how many ugly guys get great looking women... lol ) What we perceive as attractive is often based on association. I've dated incredibly hot women, who have, at the end of a very destructive relationship, been repulsive to me! When I was single, there were types of women I used to be attracted to, who I would be turned off in a heartbeat because they share similar characteristics to the said destructive relationship.

I believe we are more changeable than you give us credit for, and more responsible and in control of elements of who we are than you perhaps realise.

I'd just simply ask that you entertain these possibilities and own your choices more. I'm not saying "don't be gay", why would I say that? I'm simply trying to raise awareness of how much we can change, inside our own head.

And I'm still working on changing!
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Old 07-21-2008, 10:45 AM   #36
Cerek
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Default Re: Gay/Lesbian/Homosexual pride parades

There have been some good points brought out in responses that I want to expand on. I'll get to that in a minute. First, I want to address a little more fully my viewpoint that sexuality is not genetic.

Our dna dictates our physical characteristics, which are more or less unchangeable. Someone with curly hair can't make their hair suddenly grow straight and (with the exception of Michael Jackson), skin color is usually unchangeable as well. Emotions, desires, personality, etc - on the other hand - may be influenced by dna, but these characteristics are NOT immutable. These are areas we DO have control over and sexuality falls into that category as well.

As an example, think about the kind of food you like, or specific dishes you really enjoy. It is easy to say "I can't help the fact that I like Mexican food", but that's not necessarily true. Our tastes can - and do - change. Our taste buds influence what we like, to a degree, but so do our experiences.

Two more good points were provide by Variol and Yorick. The fact that many people DO change their "sexuality" lends proof to the fact that our sexuality is a "chosen" or "learned" desire more than an unalterable genetic trait. Dave is right that skin color can't be changed. All kidding about MJ aside, a black person cannot just choose to make their skin white and vice versa. The fact that it can NOT be changed at all (without outside influence) shows that it IS immutable. On the other hand, Yorick has provided several examples of people he knows that HAVE changed their "sexuality". If sexuality were genetic, it could not be changed by anyone. There would be no examples of gays becoming straight, straight becoming gays, etc.

The fact that parades and events are held in the name of "gay pride" supports this even further. Look at the behavior occurring at these events and think about the real purpose behind them. The real purpose isn't so much to achieve acceptance by the masses. Rather, it is to receive affirmation and justification of the "choice" they have made in their sexuality. It is essentially one huge group therapy session to give support and affirmation to those involved.

Finally, Yorick gave a very poignant description of what it is like to LOVE another person. He correctly points out that it encompasses the entire person, not just their genitalia. If all you focus on is your desires and attractions, you're not looking at the whole picture.
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Old 07-25-2008, 06:07 AM   #37
Variol (Farseer) Elmwood
Jack Burton
 

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Default Re: Gay/Lesbian/Homosexual pride parades

Well, "pride" week is upon us. The parade is tomorrow and, not to put a damper on it, but it's supposed to rain. I hope it pours.
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