Define "intrusive software":

[Micah Foehammer]

Originally Posted by wellard Yes this software was and IS a secret and to suggest otherwise is a total misrepresentation of the facts :p

Sorry no.

If it was a "secret" wellard .. how come *I* knew about it when the NWN1 game was released? How come it was COMMON knowledge on the NWN1 forums FIVE YEARS ago when the game was released?

Just because YOU were not aware of it does NOT make it a secret. Just because OTHER people on this forum did NOT know about it doesn't make it a secret. It WAS common knowledge among the gaming community. Those of you who did not know about it were simply uninformed. That's unfortunate but simply not being aware of something does NOT make it a secret.


Okay, that's my LAST word on it. Done. Finished. Over.

[wellard]

Originally Posted by Micah Foehammer Sorry no. If it was a "secret" wellard .. how come *I* knew about it when the NWN1 game was released? How come it was COMMON knowledge on the NWN1 forums FIVE YEARS ago when the game was released?

Good point, how did you know about it? was it from the adverts that they put out? the press releases? the information on the game box or in the book? Or was it passed to you by reading online on some forum Micah?

Now I have been a member of this forum since 2002 and used to lurk for a long time before then and I have no recolection of this being discussed, nor as Kakero,though I am prepared to accept that it may have been mentioned before, but does that make it common knowledge? How does the average punter going into the local wal mart to buy a game for himself or his kids know about this issue? Does the girl behind the sales counter say "log onto Ironworks and do a search of the forums for a thread on spyware fitted to the game before you put it onto your PC and if it is a problem then just return it for a refund before you open the box..." Nah I don't think so either Micah.

[robertthebard]

The simple fact is, other than a rather large group of people that surf the Atari, or BioWare forums, most people had no idea. People that shop boxes, with no knowledge of the game would have no way to know. The fact that the information isn't disclosed on the box, or during the install, is questionable, at best.

For my part, when I get the time, and the motivation, I'm going to back up all the stuff I've been doing lately in NWN, and wipe my harddrive, to insure that I get the suspect software off. After that, I'm going to retry burning my CD. I just find it rather sad that I have to spend several hours out of a day wiping, and resetting my harddrive, just because somebody wants to tell me what I can and cannot run on my computer.

[Micah Foehammer]

Originally Posted by wellard Now I have been a member of this forum since 2002 and used to lurk for a long time before then and I have no recolection of this being discussed, nor as Kakero,though I am prepared to accept that it may have been mentioned before, but does that make it common knowledge? How does the average punter going into the local wal mart to buy a game for himself or his kids know about this issue? Does the girl behind the sales counter say "log onto Ironworks and do a search of the forums for a thread on spyware fitted to the game before you put it onto your PC and if it is a problem then just return it for a refund before you open the box..." Nah I don't think so either Micah.

Wellard, you're the only person who I would have even considered jumping back into this for. Here goes - hang on, you got me going .... lol ...

First of all, we're partly discussing semantics ... you claimed it was secret, and it clearly was NOT. Okay, that's finished.

No, clearly the stilted scenario you presented is NOT going to happen. Why? Because the "average punter" doesn't buy these games anyway. They appeal to a specific group of people, most of who are very conversant in gaming systems and understand the differences between a FPS and CRPG and a tactical simulation. Most of them, by the very nature of the games they are playing, have high powered computer rigs, and can make the internet dance on the head of a pin. The average schmuck off the street is NOT going to buy NWN1 or Jade Empire or NWN2 or The Witcher. He'll buy a play station cartridge or a x-box 360 game.

The issues around the game just won't be discussed HERE at IW, Wellard. Probably because these forums are more social in nature and don't truly cater to gamers. No, the spoiler threads do NOT count folks. Those are typically "help me kill the evil wizard fooble" threads. The MOST i normally ever hear about a game BEFORE it is released is "Hey this game is coming out and developer C is doing and it's going to be great or developer A is doing it and it sucks". And the reaction, is typically "What are the system specs" and maybe ask someone whether it is a FPS game or whatever. THAT'S IT! So I don't EXPECT to get anything more than tips about new games here. If I want SOLID information about the game, I go to ....

The game's home page! What a novel concept. I can get much better and more accurate information there anyway! Usually either the distributor (Atari in the case of NWN1/NWN2) or the producer (ala Bioware / Obsidian) and occasionaly both have web sites for the game. The Witcher has an official site at Atari and another at CDProjeckt. Why not go there? I ALWAYS go to forums for ANY game I buy ahead of time. I went to the Witcher forums before I ordered that, I'm still scoping out the Mass Effect forums before I decide to order that. Anyone who think about ordering a computer game should be doing the same thing!

AND If you had done that with NWN1 before you bought it, you would have found any number of threads that clearly mentioned the securom issue. It was ALL over those forums!

I'm sorry but USUALLY the gamer who buys these games finds out about them on the internet. Heck I found out about several games here at IW. Why is it so unreasonable to expect the gamer to use the same tool to research them? Is that such a ridiculous stretch for him to research the game on the internet? Apparently some of you think so based on the reaction my stance is getting here.

I have been a long time participant on the Obsidian / Bioware / Black Isle / Interplay forums. I am a Moderator / Assistant Administrator on the Thieve's Guild NWN2 forums/ website. I usually pop in to forums for games that are in development that I am curious about at least once a week for 10 minutes to check things out. So yes, I am NOT your typical gamer. My current immersion level is MUCH deeper. NONETHELESS, back in 2002 I was NOT that heavily involved and I was still a relatively noob. Yet I was STILL aware of all the issues re: securom and NWN1. Perhaps you would consider that inside informatinon. I don't. The simple fact is that there wasn't anything at that time that I knew that anyone else, (especially those who claim to have been ignorant of those problems until now), could not have found out if they had taken the time to visit those very same forums! All present day forums have web searchs as well. USE THEM! What a NOVEL concept! Go to the forums where the developers and fans are discussing the game and maybe hear about potential issues related to it? *slaps his head* DOH!

I see many of you on this site regularly, MUCH more frequently than I am, so PLEASE don't tell me you can't spend a minute or two or ten or even an hour to search out the specifics of a given game via a web search and visit the forums. That excuse doesn't wash.

If you don't research what you are buying, you are simply an uninformed ignorant consumer. Would you buy a car without having it checked out before hand? Would you buy a TV or a major appliance without checking a consumer shopping guide? Hey, would you put 20W50 oil in your car if the manual called for 5W30? Would you run unleaded gas in a diesel engine? Of course you wouldn't! So why do you treat software ANY different?

Why spend anywhere from 1000$ to 3000$ and up to 5000$ on a fancy gaming rigs, and then bitch to beat all hell when some 50$ piece of software blows a machine to crap, and the potential problems with the software were KNOWN about in advance. I am sorry, wellard, but that is patently absurd! Buying software without researching it and THEN complaining about the ramifications of that purchase AFTERWARD is simply laughable. Caveat Emptor!

In the case of NWN2, since that is what triggered this whole discussion at the beginning, the total number of people who are actually experiencing verifiable securom related problems is small. (Read that again please - ACTUAL VERIFIABLE SECUROM RELATED PROBLEMS). Many of the problems that people lay at securoms doorstep are NOT securom related. I'm sorry that RTB may be one of them, truly, and I am sorry that you all think I am being unsympathetic to him. I really wish this had NOT happened to him. But I refuse to sit back and listen while everyone else throws up their hands, says "What a surprise! I had NO idea" and complains about this "evil secret software" It's TOTAL BS. The information was out there, and you could have found out if you had taken the time to, and it would NOT have been difficult for a group of people as intelligent as this.


Wellard, please check your pms.

[wellard]

Originally Posted by Micah Foehammer Wellard, you're the only person who I would have even considered jumping back into this for. Here goes - hang on, you got me going .... lol ... First of all, we're partly discussing semantics ... you claimed it was secret, and it clearly was NOT. Okay, that's finished. No, clearly the stilted scenario you presented is NOT going to happen. Why? Because the "average punter" doesn't buy these games anyway. Wellard, please check your pms.

Checked PM and replied Micah :p Thanks for remaining calm and explaining your position further.

Well Micah it does seems I guessed correctly that you found out your information online.

I strongly disagree however with your first statement, I (and others) say very secret and therefore find that the arguments you build on in detail afterwords to be without any foundation. So on that note we will have to agree to disagree.

Perhaps however you could point me and everyone else to the exact location of the official NWN site that advertises this software showing how it fully affects your PC.

[Luvian]

Originally Posted by Micah Foehammer No, clearly the stilted scenario you presented is NOT going to happen. Why? Because the "average punter" doesn't buy these games anyway.

Do you really think that? These games certainly does attract many casual gamers. If they were just bought by the core nerd group they wouldn't be as successful as they are.

I see plenty of people buying rpgs without being informed when I go into shops. I've seen people buy NWN 2. I've also once seen two kids torn between buying Dark Messiah of Might and Magic or Gothic 3 (back when that game had no patch and could barely be described as playable) and they settled on Gothic 3 because they were 10$ short on Messiah. I was seriously considering telling them to hold off, but decided they wouldn't believe me the game was that bad so didn't bother.

There's a reason these games end up in the bestseller and top 10 games list, and that's because people buy them.

[robertthebard]

I knew absolutely nothing about CRPGs when I discovered BG. The GF at the time brought it home from a trip to find something else to play, and I never looked back. BG/BG 2 are what brought me to this forum, on the blue board. The point being, the "average punter" (I like that phrase) may very well pick up a copy of any game with an interesting box. I got both Diablo games that way, with the exception of LoD, since it was an expansion set. If the industry relied only on the people who surf their forums, it may well be a dead industry by now.

Here's my position, and in some countries, it's the law:

Identify the software that you are installing on an end user's PC. Everything that goes on should be indicated, especially third person software. They will tell you that it supports EAX, or AMD/Intel processors, why won't they tell you what copy protection is used? It should also have information about what software it won't work with, especially, as in the case with SecuROM, when they have a list of blacklisted software.

To me, this is the secret. Also, when a game is going to install DirectX, it pops up and tells you, and asks if you want to continue. This should be an option for copy protection software as well, and that pop up should include information about what software environments will be incompatible with the copy protection installed. Will this cut sales? Yes, it will. There will be people like me, that see on the box, that the software is by Sony, and won't buy it. I'm sure this will cost the company money, however, I'm not sure it will raise prices for the people that don't care, or don't have the environment that would prove hostile to the game.

Returning software, games in particular, is touchy at best here. Unlike other things that you buy that don't/won't work, you can't just put it back in the box and go get your money back. You may be able to get an in store credit, but what happens with D2D versions? If it doesn't work, you are at the mercy of publisher. Either they fix the .exe, or they don't. I don't know how Tech Support has been for D2D, but I do know that physical medium support as been all but non-existant.

Another phrase that I've seen tossed around is "it affects an insignificant number of people". If I sold 500,000 copies of my CD, and one didn't work, that's one too many. The view at Atari right now seems to reflect that, based on tech support responses, anyway. I'd pretty much guarantee that if the ratio was the other way around, it would be fixed. I'll grant that I had no problems running NWN 2, my problem is more directly related to software that doesn't want to work, or is being prohibited from working after the fact. To me, this is the bulk of the problem. The mindset that it works for 99 out of 100 people is plain wrong.

[Micah Foehammer]

Originally Posted by wellard Checked PM and replied Micah :p Thanks for remaining calm and explaining your position further. Well Micah it does seems I guessed correctly that you found out your information online. I strongly disagree however with your first statement, I (and others) say very secret and therefore find that the arguments you build on in detail afterwords to be without any foundation. So on that note we will have to agree to disagree. Perhaps however you could point me and everyone else to the exact location of the official NWN site that advertises this software showing how it fully affects your PC.

I am absolutely stupified that you (and others) can continue to maintain that this was secret. No, it was not broadcast with 30 foot high billboards. But again the information WAS out there. But if you insist, we can just drop this and agree to disagree. I'm fine with that.

[robertthebard]

It's not a hard position to maintain. The "average punter" (I still like that phrase) would have had no way to know. The guy that reads a couple of review sites prior to release wouldn't know either. Only dedicated gamers would spend the time to research it that deeply, which may be a strike against me being a dedicated gamer, since I didn't research it that deeply.

Another point to ponder is there was no way to predict what the overall affects would be, prior to release. So a lot of dedicated punters would know it had the copy protection, and wouldn't find out until after they installed it that they were going to be locked out of the game, based on the software environment. There is also no way to say what effects it would have on other software, as is what seems likely in my case.

Here we sit, almost a year after the pirated version hit the web the same day as the game hit the shelves, with ineffective third party software punishing the people that did the right thing. The publisher, being fully aware of the problem, simply ignoring it, and hoping the dissatisfied people will go away. People may be tired of hearing about the problems, but people are hearing about the problems because the problems persist. To me, that is the bigger issue than people posting about the problems.

[Kakero]

Originally Posted by Micah Foehammer I am absolutely stupified that you (and others) can continue to maintain that this was secret. No, it was not broadcast with 30 foot high billboards. But again the information WAS out there. But if you insist, we can just drop this and agree to disagree. I'm fine with that.

It is a secret because only those people who have visited the atari forum will know about the securom thing. Those that do not visit the website will not know or probably will never know unless some people post topics about securom in other websites ie on IW.