Women abused in Chile

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Lady Sedai: Thoran...if I may ask...what is your profession, course of study or personal experience that you would know these things so definitively? I could easily provide ample information refuting your statements, but would like to know if this is just how you feel about things or if you actually have evidence of what you say.

Lady Sedai, I could provide you with reams of data... if you do a search on this board there was a topic a while back similar to this one where I provided research results.

I find that it's the "man bad/woman good" advocates that have a hard time providing unbiased data. They tend to structure their "research" in a manner sure to provide the desired results. Based on prior research in the subject, I can tell you that if you DO have data to refute my position, I'll find one of the following:

It was funded by an agenda based organization.
It's based on flawed methodology.
It's based on crime statistics but fails to address the inherent error in using crime statistics to justify a gender biased arrest policy.

I'd love to see ONE study by a reputable organization that refutes anything that I posted.

My background is in Science, BS/MS in Engineering. Frankly I think that makes me as capable of seeing poor research as anyone, as research and development is what I do. It doesn't take a phd to understand these issues, it just takes going out and reviewing the research yourself (which is what I did) instead of blindly accepting the common wisdom or the propeganda of entitlements based organizations.

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Stormymystic: I am going to step in here as one from that side. although he was not my spouse... I have been in a relationship where it was abusive, it is not so easy to LEAVE as you put it... I left, he found me, I left again, he found me, it is an endless circle of abuse. and there is also something I have not seen mentioned (not really looked hard) but there is the times that the guy has some hold over the woman. things like he knows where your family lives, and has threatend to kill them? or a child, that he threatens to kill? how much of a choice does the woman have then? if her family or friends are hurt because of her, how do you expect her to cope with that? and when in certain situations where there is no ready help available, what then? as for the children, I agree, the children have no options, but most child abuse starts with spouse abuse. if you want to end all abuse, stop teaching boys it is not ok to show emotions! boys who are taught to hide emotions let them build up until they break.

As I said Stormy, NOBODY deserves to be abused, but just because men are afraid to step forward does not mean some of them aren't suffering the same as the woman you refer to. The difference is that the woman in your example has options, she can go to the cops and not get laughed at, she can take her children and go to a shelter (where the abusive male can't find her, my mother worked at one and they are a great tool to allow women to escape violent relationships). When she does run, she can take her children with her without prompting an Amber Alert.

A man in the same situation is entirely at the mercy of the abusive woman. She can call the cops and have HIM arrested, she can threaten to take his kids, if he runs with the kids he's more likely than not going to be arrested for abduction, there are almost no shelters he can turn to, almost no support groups for him. The abused man in this country is a laughing stock, or worse yet other men and women will say "he probably deserved it". If you don't think this happens then just watch prime-time TV and see who's getting punched, kicked and assaulted regularly by the opposite sex.

I disagree that child abuse results from spousal abuse, they're two symptoms of the same problem though I'll give you that... the're both the result of an abusive person, often coupled with drug or alcohol abuse. I tend to think that children are more often abused by mothers because mothers tend to spend more time with their children, but that's no excuse (I also have no DATA to support that, just a logical conclusion but it could very well be wrong).

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Lady Sedai: coyote: Don't worry, you won't be stoned to death. I wasn't trying to say that women don't *ever* instigate domestic abuse nor that women aren't in the majority when it comes to child abuse. But I don't hold that women are in the *majority* when it comes to domestic abuse. Yes, maybe both side *argue*, but when it comes to physcial violence I don't believe the women are in the majority of instigating physical altercations. I've been there. Twice. An argument may ensue, but I never started physical encounters. Nor did my Mother although she was physically abused by my Father for 30+ years (so was I, but for me it was about 16 or so of those years). Now, perhaps in a neighborhood with a higher instance of drug/alcohol abuse, women are just as likely. But to me, that stems more from the narcotics than from "the nature of the beast". Just my opinion from *my* experiences, mind you. That's why I was telling Thoran I could easily refute his statements and wondering if it was opinion, an area of study or some work or personal experience leading him to his statements. It's been *more* than just my personal experience, though. I've also know MANY women who have been the victims - not the aggressors. That's also why I wonder if it's more "locality", too.

LS I also was not at all trying to imply that women were more agressive than men. What I am saying is that women can be and are the agressors in spousal abuse a significant percentage of the time. Women can be and are the agressors in child abuse the majority of the time. Yet we live in a country where Domestic Violence is seen as a male problem. I don't want all the womans shelters to close, I want them to provide services to the abused men out there too. I don't want the laws to stop protecting women, I want them to protect men equally. I just want DV to be looked at as the complex problem it really is... a problem that can see any member of the family as the agressor... or all of them.

To be totally clear, my opinions are based on my review of the research available... I have two boys who are growing up in a world that automatically assumes them to be the agressor, and one has already been assaulted by a girl at school. There's nothing I won't do for them, and I think ANYONE out there who's the parent of a young man should do the same research I did, learn the truth for yourself.

[SilentThief]

yeah, and there are cases when the guy IS a police officer...

But for my 2 cents, I gotta say I've seen a friend of mine hospitalized from his girlfriend at the time being a psycho and they got into an arguement that when he next went to bed, She ran and jumped on him and started kicking the crap out of him. Broke two of his ribs...

Women are not always the small,innocent, delicate creatures that many men (and law officials) mistake them for...

in my opinion, people should get along... being ONLY my opinion... they never will.

SilentThief

[Lady Sedai]

coyote: No offense taken. I've done *much* soul-searching and growing up through the horrid experiences in my past. I accept them as part of what makes me who I am. I would not *be* the strong, self-assured woman I am today if I had not gone through those dark times. I've been able to help others make the decision to leave a bad relationship as a result of my own story. I've taken the bad and made it good. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm also glad I broke that cycle and can now have a functional relationship where we communicate with one another and don't try to dominate, but strive to be equals. I also had to realize, even functional relationships have arguments and it's not the end of the world when you do.

Having said that, I appreciate, Thoran, that you gave me some insight on what brought you to your conclusions. And I do not doubt nor disagree that DV is not *just* a "bad man" thing. I've even known a few couples where it was quite obvious the woman was "in charge" and did not doubt that if the meek male in the relationship ever stood up to her, there would be physical violence heaped on his head. And I agree that since it's still a predominantly "male dominated" society that we live in, the thought of a man saying "my wife beats me" is liable to get him ridiculed by his peers, but I've even seen some court cases on TV where the man was suing either for divorce or for damages from a woman who had jumped on him. Perhaps things will change in time...for all involved.

And on the issue of child abuse...don't forget the rising cases of "parent abuse" where "children" are now the aggressors to their parents. My own cousin did this to my aunt. My second husband's nephew did it to his grandparents. You see cases all over the place nowadays of this. Not a good trend, but how do you stop it when punishing a child for misbehaving is now scrutinized so closely for signs of "abuse"? I fear it's a no-win situation...

[Thoran]

Well I don't think this is a male dominated society... but that's a different debate. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now this is all opinion, I do have data for some of it but some is just my own internalization of what I see in the world today.

IMO the key is to teach ALL that violence is no way to solve problems. That means having an effective system for educating our young men and women about violence and respect for others. The problem I see is that these days we have divorce running rampant in our country... and if you want problem children one of the strongest indicators is the old "does the child live in a single parent household" question.

Young men need strong men in their lives to teach them emotional and physical discipline. While the sentiment of Stormy's comment "stop teaching boys it is not ok to show emotions" seems good, IMO it's not what boys need. Boys need to learn to understand and control their emotions, not necessarily to show them. I think there's this idea in the western world that men would be better off if they just acted more like women... I don't think that can be more wrong. The differences between men and women are profound and wonderful, and for too long we have allowed a radical outspoken minority to denigrate all that's masculine. Our young men are SUFFERING because they see who they are, what they're growing to be, and recognize that they are the most denigrated/least valued members in our society (my opinion). When they can't see strong men worth looking up to in their lives, their response to this hostility is to be hostile right back. Now lest you think I'm ignoring girls I know they have their issues to deal with too, and suffer just as much in single parent households. It's just that since I have boys they're my primary focus, I would welcome anyone discussing the challenges young women have today (no doubt they're different but no less important).

[ 12-13-2004, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Lady Sedai]

I will agree with you on many of your points re: boys shouldn't be made to act "more like women" but to control their emotions, etc.

On the other hand, they should *also* be taught not to internalize so much. My husband has high blood pressure and there is great evidence his is strictly stress related. He holds things in because "he's a man and shouldn't worry me with his problems", but it eats him up. Young men should be taught to talk to their partners instead of holding it inside. It can either cause health problems (as in my husband's case) or even be some of the cause of men "blowing up" at women and turning to violence.

I'll post up my views on what girls go through in a bit. Gotta go take of some things around the house first.

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Lady Sedai: I will agree with you on many of your points re: boys shouldn't be made to act "more like women" but to control their emotions, etc. On the other hand, they should *also* be taught not to internalize so much. My husband has high blood pressure and there is great evidence his is strictly stress related. He holds things in because "he's a man and shouldn't worry me with his problems", but it eats him up. Young men should be taught to talk to their partners instead of holding it inside. It can either cause health problems (as in my husband's case) or even be some of the cause of men "blowing up" at women and turning to violence. I'll post up my views on what girls go through in a bit. Gotta go take of some things around the house first.

Well talking about it is one way to solve the problem, and as a man I try to communicate with my wife more than I would given my own choice, it's just a part of getting along with someone. The problem is that I think for some men (me [img]smile.gif[/img] ), "talking about it" can be more stressful than just sucking it up... it seems to me that men and women look at communication differently. My wife will look at me after a "discussion" and say "there, don't you feel better?"... and most of the time I say "NO, I'd have felt better by now if we hadn't had to talk about it though!" (I love my wife dearly... she puts up with a LOT. Of course so do I, one of those things about Marriage. [img]smile.gif[/img] )

Personally, the way I would normally choose to blow off stress is to go out and work it off, take a 2 mile swim or a 30 mile bike ride... by the time I'm done I'm exhausted and the stress is gone. For men phyical exercise is for more than just getting in shape (not sure if the same is true for women). I think the high blood pressure problem men have today is caused by the fact that we're not active enough, we have no traditional outlets for stress.

My dad is a good example... that guy had 7 kids, a very difficult wife, a not so great paying job, and he's the kind of person that dwells on EVERYTHING (he liked to yell a lot too [img]smile.gif[/img] ). Adds up to LOTS of stress. Plus there's the fact that he has always been significantly overweight (250-350lbs) and you'd think you'd have a recipe for disaster. The reality is that he's never had high blood pressure or heart problems... healhy as an OX (and somewhat resembling one). The only explanation is the level of exercise he's gotten. His job (timber buyer) required him to walk long distances daily, he got HOURS of exercise each day.

Exercise can help make up for a whole lot of bad habits.

[ 12-13-2004, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]