Suspect Chemical Facility Found!

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by pritchke: John D I actually think we are basically saying the same thing for the most part. That is why after it is over and they can't find WOMD they can plead it was for humanitarian reason instead of lying. I think most of the world would forgive them for that. I have actually heard very little that the US & UK stated that Human rights violations are the reason for the war at least not recent ones. If human rights are the issue however several other countries will be next. The media as been swamped with reasons of WOMD, and connections to 9/11 at least these are the reason I hear most. I am all for the removal of Saddham I just wasn't for this war, I was for GW1 because then we had every reason to get him and we should have finished it then. Not so much for GW2 because I have not heard anything that he did recently. Although you will not see me protesting for the war to stop because now that it as begun it will be much worse to stop it before finishing it.

I agree, lying would be inexcusible(SP?)

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: I have no doubt that some Iraqis are extremely happy to see the Coalition forces arriving in their towns. However I think the media may be overplaying and misrepresenting their reactions. I was watching American ABC the other day, and they were interviewing a journalist in southern Iraq. He was talking about the footage shown of soldiers entering Safwan, and the Iraqis dancing on the streets, tearing pictures down of Saddam, and saying 'Bush good' and so on. But then the soldiers secured the area and moved on, and this journalist and his crew went to Safwan. There was no more dancing; the journalists weren't welcomed with open arms. Instead there was anger, and suspicion, and fear for their future. What were the US going to do, why were they here, how long were they going to stay? It's probably very easy to be jubilant when the 'invading' (to their eyes) army is in your town with all their weapons and might, even if in fact they're not feeling quite so happy.

I think you're absolutely right Aelia. I think we have to keep in mind AT ALL TIMES that it is strategically important for the Allied Forces to make use of propaganda. Same goes for the Iraqis of course. The way this war develops hinges (among other things) on how the Iraqi people react to it! If most of their soldiers surrender, if the civillians cooperate, it will make a meaningful difference! So we must keep in mind the governments WILL use propaganda to try and sway the feelings of these people. Today, a British journalist will reveal he has seen many colleagues being taken in by misinformation from the allied soldiers, for instance on the supposed securing of the city Umm Qasr.

I have seen many instances of people on IW falling into the trap with open eyes. I've seen people mention "Iraqis being thrown into plastic shredders by Hussein feet first, so they'd hear their own screams". Cerek mentions an elderly man who'd just lost FIVE members of his family, still happily asserting he's glad. COME ON PEOPLE!!! This is propaganda, pure and simple. We just have to accept it, since this propaganda might make the war easier and with less loss of lives. But don't try to deny it happens!! Seriously, I got tears in my eyes when I noticed how easily this is believed. Do we have any idea what it is to be in constant terror because a bomb may kill you or your family? Doesn't matter that these people will be overjoyed to be librated from Saddam's tyranny: they won't be any less dead if a bomb hits them, or any less devastated if it kills their mother or child. I don't buy that a man who just lost half his family would do ANYTHING other than mourn, be in shock, weep, scream or whatever. He definitely wouldn't say he's still happy, because at least Saddam will be removed. I don't buy that people are regularly fed into shredders. That does not mean in any way that I don't know what horrors Hussein unleashed upon the Iraqis. I don't deny there has been torture, executions, repression, etc. But this is just like the "the English eat our babies" stories the Scots once believed. I've seen people talk about how they saw Iraqis say "they would have committed suicide if the Americans hadn't saved them". Uh, they have been in this dreadful situation for 12 years!! Again I don't deny the gravity of their predicament, I question why they would all of a sudden want to commit suicide now, when they have lived in terror all their lives.
In short, I don't outright dismiss anything I hear reported about the Iraqis - not at all. I am painfully aware of how much they've suffered and don't doubt many are feeling happy and/or hopeful they will be liberated now. But I know it's a fact of war that propaganda is taking place, and I choose to ignore the baby-eating or equivalent nonsense. Since I live in a country that does not actively support the war, though the government HAS decided to give political support now that the war is started, I like to believe I get a slightly (only slightly, mind!!) less "edited" view than say the Iraqis or the Americans, even though I know there is no single news report I should swallow without the least bit of reserve.

[ 03-25-2003, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

[pritchke]

I have been watching CBC news world and they show people who are scared and mad at the invaders, as well as those who are glad to be free. My perspective from the news source I watch is one of neutrality, that there are Iraqis with feelings of support for both sides. So one of the things I don't understand is how people can believe that everyone in Iraq is going to be dancing and establishing a new government will be a piece of cake. Just because a media source shows everyone happy about being liberated doesn't mean everyone is. I remember the statement that Iraqis who support Saddahm are brainwashed. While some of that is more than likely true, I laugh because the same can be said for many on this side who believe from watching their news that all the people are happy they are being invaded.

[Melusine]

Originally posted by pritchke: I have been watching CBC news world and they show people who are scared and mad at the invaders, as well as those who are glad to be free. My perspective from the news source I watch is one of neutrality, that there are Iraqis with feelings of support for both sides. So one of the things I don't understand is how people can believe that everyone in Iraq is going to be dancing and establishing a new government will be a piece of cake. Just because a media source shows everyone happy about being liberated doesn't mean everyone is. I remember the statement that Iraqis who support Saddahm are brainwashed. While some of that is more than likely true, I laugh because the same can be said for many on this side who believe from watching their news that all the people are happy they are being invaded.

Exactly, well put! As I wrote in a different thread, I think that most Iraqis are likely of two minds about this matter. They do want to be rid of Saddam Hussein's regime, but they don't want this war. Most of them will probably accept the lesser of these two evils to defeat the greater. But I doubt they are cheering about it. After all, no matter how much the war may help them, it remains a WAR.

[Azred]

It probably would have been better for everyone concerned if 1) one of Saddam's generals had been able to stage a successful coup or 2) someone had assassinated Saddam. As it is, we have this little war going on.
Since none of us are receiving high-quality front-line intelligence as it happens (forcing us to rely on second-hand news accounts), I find it better to ignore the up-to-the-minute news flashes and simply check for current events two or three times daily. No, I may not be up-to-date on events as they happen, but since I am not on the front lines I don't need that kind of information immediately.

The chemical plant may or may not have been a weapon factory; time will tell. Saddam's history is sufficient evidence that he is a threat to stability in the Middle East and needs to be removed; no weapons of mass destruction are needed. The propoganda is flowing freely on both sides; letting a day pass before learning of events is helpful to guard against this to some degree (but it would be better were I able to read Arabic *sigh*).

[Hayashi]

Melusine
There are reports of a civilian uprising in Basra, against the Iraqi regime. Reportedly the Iraqi troops used a mortar on their own citizens to try to quell the revolt. The mortar was reportedly 'neutralised' by British counter-battery fire (gotta love the TPQ radars!)
Do you believe this to be the truth, an outright lie (as the Iraqis claim) or a 'lie' with a kernel of truth at its centre?

[Grojlach]

Well said, Melusine. [img]smile.gif[/img]