Pretzels for Bush!

[Ronn_Bman]

It's the symbolism that is implied. Pretzels aren't a product readily associated with America. They aren't sending cans of Coca-Cola or Apple Pies or Baseballs to the government are they?

The article from the link actually tells of the story of Bush choking on a pretzel and shows a picture of him afterwards. That is the reason they chose the pretzel as their symbol, right? I mean, it is on the site.

The symbolism here relates directly to Bush choking and passing out from a lack of oxygen. An accident that could easily have resulted in his death. What symbolism does the Bretzel represent if not this?

If anyone can explain to me a different message this symbolic protest is trying to share, and explain the fact that the site explicitly shows the choking story, while also explaining how the story there is unrelated, I'll be happy to listen. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm pretty sure the pouring out of wine isn't seen as a hope that Chirac will choke on a grape or fall down drunk and break his neck, and that the renaming of French Fries isn't in the hope that Chirac will choke on a potato(with or without mayonaise [img]smile.gif[/img] ). I'm also pretty sure that neither of these protests could be considered to wish Chirac ill health in any way shape or form.

[ 03-18-2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Night Stalker]

Originally posted by Grojlach: Actually, that's the conclusion you draw from it yourself; there's not an excerpt on the website claiming anything of the sort, as far as I can tell... What's this about a symbolic protest that people take it far too literally?

*Sigh .... why I bother cuz I don't agree with any of these petty displays*

Groj, it's not a difficult conclusion to draw. The pretzels have no meaning or context without Bush having choked on one. Add to that, they plan to send them to the White House (didn't read the article ... can't read French). Had they poured Coke down the drain or stopped purchasing American products, that's one thing. This message goes beyond "We want nothing to do with America".

The wine and "freedom" things, while petty, express that those people want nothing to do with France. The wine dumping even has historical context for Americans. The Boston Tea Party was a protest of the British Stamp Act. They dumped a whole shippment of tea into Boston Harbor.

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: I'm sorry, but if you take the pouring out of wine as a personal insult, you have really thin skin.

That would depend on how good the wine is/was [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Grojlach]

I don't even know why I'm defending the pretzel protest as I don't agree with it myself at all, but what the heck...

*cough*
"Bush! The man who couldn't be stopped by logic, diplomacy, huge-around-the-world protests, weapon inspector recommendations, unwilling allies and UN resolutions... Isn't there anything that would affect the most powerful and best defended man on the planet *at all*? Isn't there anything that could even keep his mind off of Iraq or the War on Terrorism for even a single minute? The only thing that almost stopped him in his tracks was a single pretzel. Hmm..."

Or something along those lines should their reasoning be. Once again, I do not support the above reasoning, I just don't think this protest is implying that they want Bush dead... If they wanted to send out a death threat, they probably would have sent him a loaded gun or something along those lines. They want him stopped, and they're using the symbolicism of the one thing that almost stopped him, a pretzel. I just don't think it should be mistaken with a death threat, as some seem to do here.
Once again, I think their choice is done in very poor taste, but people seem to take this protest far more seriously than it actually is.

I'd actually want to quote the bit Masklinn posted before for a better understanding of the lighthearted silliness that was most likely the basis for this protest, and not necessarily the intended vindictivity (although I can't look inside the initiators' heads for their full reasoning, of course):

On the other hand, even if that can sound mean, I m sorry, but c'mon, I had a good laugh to see the president of the most powerful nation, on every TV news / newspapers around the world cause he choked with a silly pretzel. Same with Bill Clinton having sex with another woman. C'mon...do you see such silly stuff about other nations leaders ? I mean, of course they all do that kind of stuff, they're human too, but they don't make a worldwide noise of it. If you don't want people to laugh of it, just don't make such a fuss about it. (And dare tell me you didnt have at least a small smile when you saw Bush with marks on his face, like he fought a tiger, explaining that he choked with a pretzel).

Especially the last bit... The pretzel incident is a part of George W. Bush's caricature in the world press now; he'll carry that with him for the rest of life, something which most likely will still re-occur in satire, cartoons, comics, tv shows, you name it, for years to come; And probably ranging from ultraleft "eurotwit" tv-shows to rightwinged patriottic US tv-shows. Of course it's terrible he almost died, but fortunately, he didn't. It's the Monty Python-esque clumsy silliness of the situation however which makes it so easy for people to treat this case in a much more light-hearted way than would have been the case if Dubya just barely survived a sniper attack or poisoning, for example. And I honestly believe the protest was done in this same (childish) light-heartedness, not from the bottom of their Evil Anti-American Pro-Terrorism Beating Hearts.

[ 03-18-2003, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[Bardan the Slayer]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: The wine dumping even has historical context for Americans. The Boston Tea Party was a protest of the British Stamp Act. They dumped a whole shipment of tea into Boston Harbor.

Actually, the Boston Tea Party was caused by smugglers who, upset that tea was cheaper in America than anywhere else in the world and was thus destroying their smuggling profits, kicked up a fuss.

As to the pretzel idea - it very probably will strike some as being an indication that a few people wish Bush would die, but so what? There are plenty of people who want Bush dead because of who and what he is, just as there are plenty of people who want Saddam dead for the same reasons. Hell, there are alot of people who want their boss/neighbour/estate agent to die because of who and what they are.

I don't think it's 'sinister', certainly no more so than saying "I think the world would be a better place if Bush/my neighbour/Saddam/my estate agent was dead." Nothing sinister about it - just childish.

If they were threatening to send bombs over, then I would accept that it had dangerous, sinister undertones, but while the deliveries are restricted to packages of small snack food, I'll view it as puerile.

[ 03-18-2003, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Bardan the Slayer ]

[Night Stalker]

Originally posted by Rokenn: Quote: Originally posted by Night Stalker: I'm sorry, but if you take the pouring out of wine as a personal insult, you have really thin skin.

That would depend on how good the wine is/was [img]tongue.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]No wine good .... wine bad .... bad juju .... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Davros]

Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer: If they were threatening to send bombs over, then I would accept that it had dangerous, sinister undertones, but while the deliveries are restricted to packages of small snack food, I'll view it as puerile.

Well said BtS, peurile - nothing more - nothing less - nothing sinister to get knickers in knots.

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Davros: Quote: Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer: If they were threatening to send bombs over, then I would accept that it had dangerous, sinister undertones, but while the deliveries are restricted to packages of small snack food, I'll view it as puerile.

Well said BtS, peurile - nothing more - nothing less - nothing sinister to get knickers in knots.[/QUOTE]I agree... [img]smile.gif[/img] He managed to state the point I was trying to make in only one sharp and compact sentence. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Night Stalker]

Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer: Actually, the Boston Tea Party was caused by smugglers who, upset that tea was cheaper in America than anywhere else in the world and was thus destroying their smuggling profits, kicked up a fuss.

Off topic ... but ... huh? I've never heard anything even close to that. One of us needs to go hunting for a revisionist historian. But given that America imported British tea, and the King raised the tax on tea as part of the Stamp Act, I'm willing to bet it's your hunt. I really didn't think Samual Adams was a smuggler. Brewer - yes, rebel - yes, but smuggler?

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Grojlach: I do not support the above reasoning, I just don't think this protest is implying that they want Bush dead...

Sounds like we are in agreement.

I certainly don't believe this is a death threat or even a serious wish for his death, but I do believe it's in incredibly poor taste.

My point was that the symbolism was about "stopping him" at any cost, and that the symbolism was about his death at the hands of a pretzel in order to achieve the goal. Symbolic though, not a real threat.

Poor taste? Yes, but at least some proceeds go to charity. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I admitted earlier sometimes this type humor is funny, and I see the humor, but I've also seen the humor in some anti-French jokes, but I knew the message they sent was wrong.

BTW, your sig pic is still cracking me up...lol.

[ 03-18-2003, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]