Heard a great song today!

[Jay&SilentBob]

I think the wedding he is referring too if I am not mistaken is one in Afghanistan shortly after the fall of the Taliban. American planes were doing recon and as they passed over/near a wedding reception being held some of the guests shot their rifles into the air in celebration and at least one of the planes bombed/strafed the area. It was awhile ago and it didnt get much coverage here but I THINK thats what he is talking about.

Originally posted by Jay&SilentBob: I think the wedding he is referring too if I am not mistaken is one in Afghanistan shortly after the fall of the Taliban. American planes were doing recon and as they passed over/near a wedding reception being held some of the guests shot their rifles into the air in celebration and at least one of the planes bombed/strafed the area. It was awhile ago and it didnt get much coverage here but I THINK thats what he is talking about.

Their rifles = AK-47 and AK-74's, shooting in the air...real bright in a war zone no? I think this story may be a bit one sided me thinks. But as has been noted, accidents happen. At least the US helps the victims of its accidents recover unlike so very many other governments.

Lest I seem anti-social [img]smile.gif[/img] Hiho Nacht...everyone! [img]smile.gif[/img] nice song [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img]

[ 03-06-2003, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Jay&SilentBob]

Well like I said it was awhile ago and I may have a few details wrong. Someone more knowledgeable about the incident could probably help you more on the subject [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by MagiK: Lest I seem anti-social [img]smile.gif[/img] Hiho Nacht...everyone! [img]smile.gif[/img] nice song [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img]

ROFL!! You, anti-social?!? Noooooo... HEHEHEHEHEHEHE

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Jay&SilentBob: I think the wedding he is referring too if I am not mistaken is one in Afghanistan shortly after the fall of the Taliban. American planes were doing recon and as they passed over/near a wedding reception being held some of the guests shot their rifles into the air in celebration and at least one of the planes bombed/strafed the area. It was awhile ago and it didnt get much coverage here but I THINK thats what he is talking about.

Huh...I hadn't heard about that. But, as Magik points out, firing off assault rifles in a war zone isn't the brightest idea. And, also as Magik pointed out, the US did/does spend a great deal of money/time/effort trying to make up for it's mistakes, as well as to ensure that they dont happen a second time.

[Dreamer128]

Originally posted by MagiK: Quote: Originally posted by Jay&SilentBob: I think the wedding he is referring too if I am not mistaken is one in Afghanistan shortly after the fall of the Taliban. American planes were doing recon and as they passed over/near a wedding reception being held some of the guests shot their rifles into the air in celebration and at least one of the planes bombed/strafed the area. It was awhile ago and it didnt get much coverage here but I THINK thats what he is talking about.

Their rifles = AK-47 and AK-74's, shooting in the air...real bright in a war zone no? I think this story may be a bit one sided me thinks. But as has been noted, accidents happen. At least the US helps the victims of its accidents recover unlike so very many other governments. [/QUOTE]Here are the full articles from the website of The Guardian;
If you need more sources, just do a Google search on 'Afghanistan wedding incident'.

US bomb blunder kills 30 at Afghan wedding

Pentagon admits one of its bombs was 'errant'

Luke Harding, South Asia correspondent and Matthew Engel in Washington
Tuesday July 2, 2002
The Guardian

American military officials were last night trying to explain one of their worst blunders during the nine-month war in Afghanistan after a US plane mistakenly targeted a house full of wedding guests, killing at least 30 of them.
The bombing happened at 1am yesterday in a village in the rugged and mountainous central region of Oruzgan, 105 miles north of the southern city of Kandahar.

Survivors of the attack said several guests had just fired their Kalashnikovs into the air, as is traditional in Pashtun wedding ceremonies. A US air patrol over-head wrongly concluded it was coming under fire and responded with devastating force.

An AC-130 helicopter gun-ship and B-52 bomber blasted the scene, leaving scores of people dead - among them women and children - and at least 40 injured.

Pentagon officials last night conceded that at least one bomb dropped on the village of Kakarak was "errant". But their initial response was confused and they were unable to explain why the pilots had failed to establish whom they were attacking in a region clearly abandoned by Taliban and al-Qaida fighters several months ago.

"There was no one to help last night," one resident, Abdul Saboor, said. "We managed to transfer some of the wounded to Kandahar in the morning. Some of the foreigners' choppers also came to help."

"There are no Taliban or al-Qaida or Arabs here. These people were all civilians, women and children."

An Afghan defence ministry official last night said more than 30 people had been killed in the attack, which appears to have gone on for two hours. The original death toll had been put as high as 120.

"It was a wedding ceremony and some of the participants were firing in the sky as part of the celebration. Americans have confessed that they made a mistake," he said.

Several survivors recovering in Kandahar's Mir Wais hospital yesterday said US troops had arrived at the scene shortly afterwards demanding to know "who fired on the helicopters".

Hospital officials said a number of wounded were being brought to Kandahar, a day's journey away by road. Most of the dead and injured were women and children, they said. A six-year-old girl named Paliko was brought to the hospital still wearing her party dress. She was injured, but villagers said all members of her family were killed.

"Their families are gone. The villagers brought these children and they have no parents. Everyone says that their parents are dead," Mohammed Nadir, a nurse, said.

The incident is deeply embarrassing for the American military, which has so far had little success in fulfilling its initial war aim of hunting down Osama bin Laden. Most senior Taliban figures together with remnants of al-Qaida decamped to Pakistan's tribal regions late last year, intelligence sources believe.

In Washington, the Pentagon yesterday admitted that at least one bomb dropped by western warplanes had missed its target, but it could not confirm claims that members of a wedding party had been killed.

Lt Cmdr Jeff Davis, a Pentagon spokesman, said anti-aircraft fire was directed at an air patrol of "coalition warplanes" and they had responded with close air support north of Kandahar. "At least one bomb was errant. We don't know where it fell," he said. "We are aware of reports of civilian casualties but don't know if casualties were caused [by] the bomb."

The Taliban's vanished leader Mullah Mohammed Omar grew up in the remote and overwhelmingly rural province of Oruzgan, which was once a Taliban stronghold. But with the demise of the fundamentalist regime last year virtually all locals with Taliban links escaped elsewhere. Spe cial forces and other coalition troops were in the area at the time of yesterday's incident, apparently searching for al-Qaida suspects.

American warplanes have made several other grievous errors during their war in Afghanistan - but are not believed to have killed so many civilians at a single stroke.

According to local Afghans, 11 members of a wedding party were killed in a similar incident in May in the village of Balkhiel, 30 miles north of the town of Khost.

The guests were bombed after celebrating by firing into the air. US officials later insisted their planes had come under enemy attack.

The village of Hazar Qadam wrongly bombed in January is also in Oruzgan. Some 16 innocent people were killed and 27 captured. The 27 were later released after US officials admitted their mistake and allowed them to return home.

In April four Canadian soldiers died when a US fighter bombed them by mistake during a training exercise.

And last December planes bombed a convoy from the eastern town of Khost, killing a group of tribal elders travelling to Kabul for Hamid Karzai's inauguration as interim leader.

No US apology over wedding bombing

Afghans claim 40 killed, 100 hurt, prompting Karzai to confront American officials in Kabul

Luke Harding, South Asia correspondent
Wednesday July 3, 2002
The Guardian

US military officials in Afghanistan have refused to apologise following the mistaken bombing of an Afghan wedding party on Monday which killed at least 30 people, insisting that aircraft had come under sustained and hostile fire.
The incident prompted the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, to summon US military chiefs to his office and demand "all necessary measures" be taken "not to harm innocent Afghan civilians".

Afghans claim the wedding guests, who were celebrating near Deh Rawud village, in the mountainous province of Oruzgan, north of Kandahar, had been firing into the air - a Pashtun wedding tradition - when American planes struck.

But a US spokesman claimed yesterday that the shooting was "not consistent" with a wedding, saying that the planes had come under attack.

"Normally when you think of celebratory fire... it's random, it's sprayed, it's not directed at a specific target," said Colonel Roger King at the US airbase at Bagram. "In this instance, the people on board the aircraft felt that the weapons were tracking them and were [trying] to engage them."

The US planes - including a B-52 bomber and an AC-130 helicopter gunship - dropped seven 2,000lb bombs, he added.

His unapologetic tone, after one of the worst blunders of the US-led coalition's nine-month war in Afghanistan will infuriate locals, who said most of the dead were women and children. At least 40 others were injured.

Last night a US soldier was shot in the foot as an American military convoy returning from the hospital in Kandahar where wedding party victims were being treated came under fire. Col King said the wounded soldier was taken to the US base at Kandahar airport. Afghans travelling with the convoy returned fire but it was not known if they hit any targets.

In Washington, the defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, said of the bombing that any loss of innocent lives was a tragedy, but said he would not know what had happened until the Afghan and US investigators had reported. "I read in the paper there was a wedding," Mr Rumsfeld said. "I just don't know the facts."

US troops appear to have been carrying out a major search for Mullah Omar, the Taliban's fugitive leader.

The Afghan foreign minister, Abdullah Abdullah, said that 40 people, all civilians, had died, and that a further 100 were wounded.

"In one village, there was a wedding party... a whole family of 25 people. No single person was left alive. This is the extent of the damage," he said.

Raaz Mohammad, an official at the Oruzgan governor's office in the provincial capital, Tarin Kowt, also put the death toll as high as 40.

The Pentagon has admitted that one of its bombs was "errant" and missed the target, but has refused to confirm that a missile hit the wedding party.

American confusion is compounded by the fact that it is unclear which plane was involved. The Pentagon confirmed that a B-52 bomber did drop seven "precision guided weapons" on a cave complex, one of which missed the target. But the US claims this hit an empty hillside. That still leaves questions about the AC-130 gunship that returned what was claimed to be anti-aircraft fire.

Mr Rumsfeld said he knew of no casualties, other than four "young people" brought by their father to a US base, who were then helicoptered to Kandahar for treatment. He did hint that al-Qaida training manuals gave advice on how to discredit the US in situations like this but added: "I have no reason to believe that is the case this time."

Col King said the incident occurred during an operation to track down wanted Taliban or al-Qaida personnel, arms and documents.

He said: "The US government extends its deepest sympathies to those who may have lost loved ones or who may have suffered any injuries. Coalition military forces take extraordinary measures to protect against civilian casualties."

US forces killed 15 people in the same province in January in a firefight which they later admitted was "ill-advised".

[ 03-06-2003, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]

[Barry the Sprout]

Originally posted by MagiK: Their rifles = AK-47 and AK-74's, shooting in the air...real bright in a war zone no? I think this story may be a bit one sided me thinks. But as has been noted, accidents happen. At least the US helps the victims of its accidents recover unlike so very many other governments.

I'm not sure what side of the story you're going to have to focus on to make the death of 30 civilians acceptable MagiK. Whether or not they were firing into the air I really don't think you can blame the wedding guests for what happened. As J&SB said - it was after the Taliban had fallen as I recall. The people should not have been fired on, its as simple as that.

[Link]

I seem to remember more than a decadeof UN resolutions trying to prevent that action...they didn't work...so where do you see "anxious" coming into the works? It has been 13 months since Bush has put his foot down, and yet no invasion has taken place....13 months..more than a year....is that anxious?

Why is it that you come up with this "we've waited for 13 months"? I mean; I only stated that I thought America was anxious to get into war with Iraq, and that's simply stating the truth MagiK. If you will be telling me in your reply to this post they are not looking for a war, then you are blatantly lying.

Mix apples and oranges and sheep and pigs all you want, but you are completely off base on this issue. To date it is widely accepted that isreal has WoMD to date, there hasnt been any evidence of Israel selling arms to terrorists, To date, Israel has not had to use WoMD, before they had WoMD they were invaded and attacked repeatedly by the Arab League....do a bit of history search guy and learn the facts. Israel is just a bunch of people trying to keep from being exterminated by arabs, like Germany tried to do 50 years ago or so. Right now I believe that Europe as a whole really needs to look at the problem of anti-semitism that is resurging there...not a very proud thing to have in your own back yard.

I quote from a major newspaper in Holland (NRC Handelsblad): "The next dilemma is that Israël, India and Pakistan didn't sign the Non Proliferation Treaty and have posession of nuclear weapons (although Israël never acknowledged that). Although these countries cannot be 'punished' because of violation of a treaty, they did work against the treaty. Reason enough for the United States to announce sanctions against India and Pakistan. Those sanctions have been called of, or at least delayed, because both countries have co-operated with the 'war on terror'."

I ask you this, MagiK. You said it yourself; Israël has access (to put it in the least) to WoMD. But why doesn't the US announce sanctions against Israël, but they do against India and Pakistan? And don't start about being a country capable of using them; we're simply talking about agreeing on a treaty or not.

See? I did my bit of research and learned the facts. Back to you.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Seraph: Quote: Why do you think there is a Northern NO-fly zone in Iraq?

Because we (In what has to be one of the dumbest moves of the last 15 years) let Iraq keep its helocopters, which allowed them to crush the rebellion in the north. The Northern No-fly zone was a patch applied to a problem that shouldn't have existed in the first place.

Or how about talking to the Iranians that where killed during the little war between Iraq and Iran?

Iran lost suprisingly few civilials.
Also, I think a country who's primary method of attack is the humanwave shouldn't compain when people get killed.

Israel did not get any WoMD from the USA, they got them on their own, you know the old fashion way. They stole a ship loaded with fisionable matterial, the ship sailed from Norway I believe so if you want to blame somebody blame the Nowegians(SP?) for not having enough security on a ship of fisionable matterial.

Isreal got its nuclear weapons from France. The only thing it got from Norway was some heavy water, which Norway sold to France, and then France secretly sent to Israel. I have no idea where the whole "stole a ship" came from.[/QUOTE]Quoted my post in it's entirety
[QUOTE]Originally posted by John D Harris:
First off the USA is NOT anxious to jump into war IT HAS BEEN ALLMOST 18 months since our country was attacked! By no stretch of any imagination can that be considered anxious! For 18 months the USA has danced around any invasion. You bet your sweet pippy it will be a war! And people will die make no mistake about it!
You logic about Israel is flawed allmost beyond belief! NAME ONE time Israel has ever use it's WoMD! Then go talk to the Kurd civilians that were killed in 1991 after the Gulf war by the Iraqis! I saw the bodies of babies killed by Iraqis chemical attacks plastered all over the TV. Why do you think there is a Northern NO-fly zone in Iraq? Or how about talking to the Iranians that where killed during the little war between Iraq and Iran? There is a far cry from having WoMD's and Using them on civilains!!!!!
Israel did not get any WoMD from the USA, they got them on their own, you know the old fashion way. They stole a ship loaded with fisionable matterial, the ship sailed from Norway I believe so if you want to blame somebody blame the Nowegians(SP?) for not having enough security on a ship of fisionable matterial.

It wasn't the Kurds killed by gas in March of 1991 it was the Shiites, the old grey matter hard drive got the kurds killed in 1988 and the Shiites mixxed up.

1) "Saddam's regime dropped chemical weapons on Halabja in Northern Iraq in 1988. More than 5000 civilians were killed. In March 1991, Saddam used chemical weapons against the Shias in Najaf and Kerbala to crush the uprising after the Gulf War."
Here's the Link http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/...cs/0000295.php

2) "1990 — During the Gulf War, Iraq uses chemical weapons against Kurds and Shiites."
Here's the Link http://www.jaxnews.com/news/2001/as-...-1l28q2706.htm (I'm waiting on conformation from the reporter, if he'll give me the source I'm be more then happy pass them on.)

3) "Repression of the Revolt

The Iraqi opposition revolted without the help of the US.

Hussein, attempted to demonstrate his power and prevent further revolts by using chemical and biological weapons (such as fluorine gas) on his own people.

However, this created more hatred toward Hussein.

Realizing this, in order to ensure his position of power, Hussein has been oppressing the Shiites and trying to keep them from being able to form a unified revolt."
Here's the Link http://oncampus.richmond.edu/~tlewel...entpp/iraq.htm (No way to get in contact with the writer that I can see so you can take it or leave it)

I never said Iranian civilains I said: Or how about talking to the Iranians that where killed during the little war between Iraq and Iran? Point being that the Iraqis have a HISTORY of using WoMD or chemical weapons if you like.

It wasn't a stolen ship it was just the Cargo The ship was of Norwegian registry, it's been years since I've seen the History Channel show on "Operation Plumbat"

1) "After the 1967 war, France stopped supplies of uranium to Israel. These supplies were from former French colonies of Gabon, Niger, and the Central Africa Republic.34 Israel had small amounts of uranium from Negev phosphate mines and had bought some from Argentina and South Africa, but not in the large quantities supplied by the French. Through a complicated undercover operation, the Israelis obtained uranium oxide, known as yellow cake, held in a stockpile in Antwerp. Using a West German front company and a high seas transfer from one ship to another in the Mediterranean, they obtained 200 tons of yellow cake. The smugglers labeled the 560 sealed oil drums “Plumbat,” which means lead, hence “Operation Plumbat.”35 The West German government may have been involved directly but remained undercover to avoid antagonizing the Soviets or Arabs.36 Israeli intelligence information on the Nazi past of some West German officials may have provided the motivation.37"
foot notes from web site:35. Weissman and Krosney, 124-128 and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, 1990, 198-199.

36. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, 395(n. 57).98-199

37. Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, 1990, 58.
Here's the link http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cpc-pubs/farr.htm

We didn't allow the Iraqis to keep their Helicopters we allowed them to fly their helicopters, we hadn't conquered Iraq or gained control of their helicopters.
1) 'Now that we had covered the the coalition's main points, we had a brief discussion of how vehicles in the cease-fire zone would would fly orange flags to signal peacful intent. Then I asked, "Are there any other matters the general would like to discuss?"
"We have one point," he said. "You know the situation of our roads and bridges and communications." I nodded, thinking of the overwhelming damage our bombing had done. "We would like to fly helicopters to carry officials of our goverment in areas where roads and briges are out. This has nothing to do with the front line. This is inside Iraq."
It appeared to me to be a legitimate request. And given that the Iraqis had agreed to all our requests, I didn't feel it was unreasonable to grant one of theirs: "As long as it is not over any part we are in, that is absolutely no problem. So we will let helicopters fly. That is a very important point, and I want to make sure it's recorded, that military helicopters can fly over Iraq. Not fighters, not bombers."1

1. It doesn't take a hero; General Norman Schwarzkof; pg 488-489, hardback, Bantam Book/October 1992

[ 03-07-2003, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]