If war leads to nukes, then what?!

[Scholarcs]

This is direct from a newspaper - and I have seen the same thing printed in many.

"Iraq warned the superpower it was deluding itself.

"He who ever attacks our country will lose," Trade Minister Mohammed Mehdi Saleh told a solidarity conference in Baghdad where he announced extra food rations -- wheat, rice, cooking oil and powder milk -- to help households build up reserves."

It has been printed in different newspapers in different ways - yes Saddam is having his people stockpile food.

And about his waist line - that is my point with the sanctions. He will NOT suffer just because you put sanctions on Iraq, it is the children on the street who suffer.

Another quote from an Iraqi official: "Iraq's oil, nationalized by the president...from the hands of the British and Americans in 1972...will remain in the hands of this people and this leadership."

There we go - the oil is not for america - unless they want to buy it.

[Cloudbringer]

Scholarcs, what paper? Who publishes it? Can you give us some more info or a full citation?

[Scholarcs]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Scholarcs, what paper? Who publishes it? Can you give us some more info or a full citation?

I first saw it in the New Zealand Herald in a report from Reuters.

Here are online newspapers and news sites with similar reports, simply search on the page for "extra food rations", and you will find the part which I refer too.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...sourcepage.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1228-06.htm
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/021228/80/dhiir.html
http://www.jordantimes.com/sun/news/news1.htm
http://www.bloodhounddaily.com/archive-20021229.shtml

Im kind of lost here...you are taking the statements of the Iraqi government seriously? This is the same government that predicted a terrible price for the "first" invasion....the guys who predicted a long protracted death dealing battle ...that in reality took all of 100 hours. I know you are a bit on the young side to really remember the first Iraqi war, but go back and look at the facts of the first clash with this military menace called Iraq...back then they had the worlds 4th largest army....and the coalition forces were outnumbered 2 to 3 I think it was...and the best they could do was make a 100 hour stand...and that was only because it took us a while to get all the POWs registered or it would have been quicker.......you are worrying about the wrong things dude.

[Scholarcs]

Originally posted by MagiK: Im kind of lost here...you are taking the statements of the Iraqi government seriously? This is the same government that predicted a terrible price for the "first" invasion....the guys who predicted a long protracted death dealing battle ...that in reality took all of 100 hours. I know you are a bit on the young side to really remember the first Iraqi war, but go back and look at the facts of the first clash with this military menace called Iraq...back then they had the worlds 4th largest army....and the coalition forces were outnumbered 2 to 3 I think it was...and the best they could do was make a 100 hour stand...and that was only because it took us a while to get all the POWs registered or it would have been quicker.......you are worrying about the wrong things dude.

Probably you are right, I shouldn`t trust the Iraqi government statements.

Then again I don`t trust anything the american government says or prints a cent more.

[Morgan_Corbesant]

Originally posted by Scholarcs: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Boy you are just full of mis-information today Iraq is NOT getting its support from the citizens of Iraq, afraid some big bad country is gonna invade and kill innocent women and children....they live with that fear every day from their own leaders by the way. Iraq is getting support from Germany and France and Iran and Saudi Arabia and Other Islamic Nations with extremist religious factions. (Germany and France...well ok not direct support, but they are buying a certain amount of Oil from Iraq in a supposed effort to get them money for food and they aren't the only nations buying what oil Iraq is being allowed to sell.). As for the right to bear arms. This right is not GIVEN to us by the government, no government gives you rights. Rights are yours by virtue of being. You can allow governments to take those rights from you however. Our right to bear arms was not recognized to protect us from foreign invaders either. It is there to protect us from dictatorial and tyranical government (read the writings of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson for a better grasp of this concept). Live Free or Die, should be the motto of the US, it is a sad thing that it is not.

I've just had this discussion on another forum about the americans right to bear arms, and most americans actually believe that a shotgun and a handgun with 40 rounds of ammunition would protect you from a government which had the support of a large trained military with the latest weaponary.

Saddam has support inside Iraq because he is being portrayed as standing up against americans who want Iraqs oil...this will continue for as long as you let it happen, and any american action will serve to increase his support.

btw...Iraqi citizens have been given extra food rations to store in case there is an american invasion.[/QUOTE]LOL. first off, i AM military trained, as are THOUSANDS of people in the U.S. Most of said trained people teach their children how to shoot, via hunting. hell, even those with no military training learn how to shoot by hunting. personaly, i dont own a shotgun, though i own several handguns and RIFLES. i dont know if you know anything about weapons at all, but i personaly own a Remington .308 with a 10 power scope, bi-pod, and heavy barrel. i also own a pre-ban AR15 rifle, with a 4 power scope, bi-pod, and pre-ban 30 round magazines. i am trained in the use of booby-traps and ambush techniques, as well as various other forms of combat. I study Muay-Thai. in other words, there are far more things than just shotguns and handguns.

second of all, most of the countries that would do the U.S. harm, may have manpower, but they dont have technology. America is FAR superior in the warfare technology department than any other country. we have the training and equipment to give our troops said technology and training. China has a million man military, but i will gaurantee that no all of them are trained WELL, and are probably less equiped. not to mention the cost to A) feed a military that size and B) give the ammunition neccisary to sustain a war to that many people.

third and last, i wasn't saying that America could repell an invasion on its private citizens weapons alone, but add that to the military, and nobody would WANT to try. hell, the gangs alone have alot of firepower, as do the organized crime rings that exist in EVERY country. the point is that IF an enemy got into our country to take it over......... rent the move Red Dawn and you will see what im talking about. The millions of Americans vs the one or two million that MAY try to get here ( of course those numbers are not accurate, since they would sustain TERRIBLE loses just trying to get here.)

Im in no way saying that America is superior to anyone, but isn't it ironic that we are the first ones called to help out anyone in trouble? people are B******G about how America "starts" wars. well, if we allow these crazed lunatics with military's ( let the stupid "dubya" jokes and comments commence)to continue getting what they want, they will eventually have the power to NUKE someone. that someone may be America, or it may be Italy, France, Germany, Russia, England, or anyone else that they would like to decimate. point being, why whine and cry over spilt milk? its going to happen, why not back-up those who are going to war? why make them feel as if they will be spit on and hated when they return to their country of origin? this isn't about Big Bully America, its about Big BROTHER America. give it a rest. it was said best by Bilbo Baggins (someone we are all familiar with) "With great power, comes great responisibility". it is easy to point fingers when you are not the one calling the shots, but put yourself in that position, and you may find yourself on the other side of the fence. my rambling has now ended, let the flaming commence. if i offended anyone............ i guess im sorry.

Originally posted by Morgan_Corbesant: LOL. first off, i AM military trained, as are THOUSANDS of people in the U.S. Most of said trained people teach their children how to shoot, via hunting. hell, even those with no military training learn how to shoot by hunting. personaly, i dont own a shotgun, though i own several handguns and RIFLES. i dont know if you know anything about weapons at all, but i personaly own a Remington .308 with a 10 power scope, bi-pod, and heavy barrel. i also own a pre-ban AR15 rifle, with a 4 power scope, bi-pod, and pre-ban 30 round magazines. i am trained in the use of booby-traps and ambush techniques, as well as various other forms of combat. I study Muay-Thai. in other words, there are far more things than just shotguns and handguns. second of all, most of the countries that would do the U.S. harm, may have manpower, but they dont have technology. America is FAR superior in the warfare technology department than any other country. we have the training and equipment to give our troops said technology and training. China has a million man military, but i will gaurantee that no all of them are trained WELL, and are probably less equiped. not to mention the cost to A) feed a military that size and B) give the ammunition neccisary to sustain a war to that many people. third and last, i wasn't saying that America could repell an invasion on its private citizens weapons alone, but add that to the military, and nobody would WANT to try. hell, the gangs alone have alot of firepower, as do the organized crime rings that exist in EVERY country. the point is that IF an enemy got into our country to take it over......... rent the move Red Dawn and you will see what im talking about. The millions of Americans vs the one or two million that MAY try to get here ( of course those numbers are not accurate, since they would sustain TERRIBLE loses just trying to get here.) Im in no way saying that America is superior to anyone, but isn't it ironic that we are the first ones called to help out anyone in trouble? people are B******G about how America "starts" wars. well, if we allow these crazed lunatics with military's ( let the stupid "dubya" jokes and comments commence)to continue getting what they want, they will eventually have the power to NUKE someone. that someone may be America, or it may be Italy, France, Germany, Russia, England, or anyone else that they would like to decimate. point being, why whine and cry over spilt milk? its going to happen, why not back-up those who are going to war? why make them feel as if they will be spit on and hated when they return to their country of origin? this isn't about Big Bully America, its about Big BROTHER America. give it a rest. it was said best by Bilbo Baggins (someone we are all familiar with) "With great power, comes great responisibility". it is easy to point fingers when you are not the one calling the shots, but put yourself in that position, and you may find yourself on the other side of the fence. my rambling has now ended, let the flaming commence. if i offended anyone............ i guess im sorry.

Hey Morgan [img]smile.gif[/img] LTNS, as for this issue...I think he was refering to Civilian Americans being able to stand up to an attempt by our own government to supress us. The things you pointed out are applicable in both situations though.

I too am also heavily armed [img]smile.gif[/img] but hell I am a light weight compared to several million fanatical gun owners, and since there are roughly 79 million legal gun owners, Im betting that the number of armed citizens is well over 150 million...ie more than half the population.

[Timber Loftis]

Well, sorry to post on an older thread, as also sorry to see it derailed by a discussion on gun ownership. But, I guess I'll rejoice in the fact that this hasn't happened to threads in a LONG while.

On Nuclear War:
If it comes to it, I for one will be at least a bit happy that N.Korea, India, Pakistan, Iran, China, and no one in the middle east (except Israel) has missiles that can deliver such weapons to US soil. That simple, really. Yes, nukes would be horrible. But, with folks like N.K. pushing the issue and puffing all the time, it's not an impossibility. Course how the hell can they threaten the US - their missles barely reach Japan.

Needless to say, I'll feel much safer on this issue once the US finally gets some missile defense system in place - it's one military area (out of VERY few) where I'd love to see more spending.

On Gun Ownership:
Sorry, MagiK, you are not born with the right to own guns as a natural right. The Constitution ensures you have this right and that it is protected from the government to an extent. I think we mean the same thing, but I just want to set the record straight. BTW, this is a *very* limited right: in almost every state you need permits, licenses, or registrations to own guns. In some states, you can buy some guns without background checks, but usually only shotguns almost never handguns.

In fact, in Chicago, you must register your gun with the state first and get an firearm license - before you buy. Even then, you must register your gun in Cook County, where the ownership of any handgun is illegal for everyone except police officers (and some other state officials) and licensed security guards. It is certainly a right that can be nearly removed if done correctly.

On the ability of armed citizens to oust or defend against the government:
A very wise professor of mine once said any system of government is only as good as its ability to get rid of the louts who come to power. At times, it seems this notion that we can take up our arms against the government is antiquated in times of stealth bombers, nuclear weapons, and unmanned military technology.

Just look at Waco, TX, where a society of some few hundred armed deviants was trounced upon. On the other hand, you have the 10,000+ Michigan militia. Why do you never hear of them on the news? Because a hundred armed deviants is one thing, but 10,000 is quite another. There are other such standing citizen army throughout the country. Plus, as others have posted, many military folks defect to the rebellion.

God, now I'm talking civil war. Think it's time to shut up.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Well, sorry to post on an older thread, as also sorry to see it derailed by a discussion on gun ownership. But, I guess I'll rejoice in the fact that this hasn't happened to threads in a LONG while. Well sorry it got derailed, but it was dead mostly, so I thought I would respond to the last post . The truth is, if it comes down to nukes...we win [img]smile.gif[/img] cause we got the most and the best! On Nuclear War: If it comes to it, I for one will be at least a bit happy that N.Korea, India, Pakistan, Iran, China, and no one in the middle east (except Israel) has missiles that can deliver such weapons to US soil. That simple, really. Yes, nukes would be horrible. But, with folks like N.K. pushing the issue and puffing all the time, it's not an impossibility. Course how the hell can they threaten the US - their missles barely reach Japan. They also have no Navy to speak of, NK's recent blustering of WAR if there are sanctions against them is hot air. The only people they can go to war against is SK, and if things get hot, they loose...in many ways. Needless to say, I'll feel much safer on this issue once the US finally gets some missile defense system in place - it's one military area (out of VERY few) where I'd love to see more spending. I can agree with that [img]smile.gif[/img] On Gun Ownership: Sorry, MagiK, you are not born with the right to own guns as a natural right. The Constitution ensures you have this right and that it is protected from the government to an extent. I think we mean the same thing, but I just want to set the record straight. BTW, this is a *very* limited right: in almost every state you need permits, licenses, or registrations to own guns. In some states, you can buy some guns without background checks, but usually only shotguns almost never handguns. Basicly a semantic disagreemet I think. YOU have the "RIGHT" due to your status as a human being, the Gubbermint however, reserves the right to limit your access to that right for the betterment of society. or something like that. In fact, in Chicago, you must register your gun with the state first and get an firearm license - before you buy. Even then, you must register your gun in Cook County, where the ownership of any handgun is illegal for everyone except police officers (and some other state officials) and licensed security guards. It is certainly a right that can be nearly removed if done correctly. On the ability of armed citizens to oust or defend against the government: A very wise professor of mine once said any system of government is only as good as its ability to get rid of the louts who come to power. At times, it seems this notion that we can take up our arms against the government is antiquated in times of stealth bombers, nuclear weapons, and unmanned military technology. Most people don't realize that every day working joes are in controll of a vast amountof military hardware in this country..its called the "National Guard" and the "Air National Guard" and as you say, most Military members are gun toting rednecks that wouldnt stand to see the Posse Cummatatis (spelling?) act completely thrown out and have the troops attack the homeland. Just look at Waco, TX, where a society of some few hundred armed deviants was trounced upon. On the other hand, you have the 10,000+ Michigan militia. Why do you never hear of them on the news? Because a hundred armed deviants is one thing, but 10,000 is quite another. There are other such standing citizen army throughout the country. Plus, as others have posted, many military folks defect to the rebellion. Waco was about a very small bad of religious zealots...well they were well armed religious zealots [img]smile.gif[/img] but your point about the Michigan Militia is well taken! God, now I'm talking civil war. Think it's time to shut up.

Yer a closet redneck Timber!!!!

[ 01-08-2003, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Cloudbringer]

hmm, was that a flame, MagiK? LOL Just teasing... you have all been so darned POLITE and well mannered, there's almost nothing for a mod to do here!

And guess what?

I like it that way!

Thanks everyone...continue like I never was here.... *sits back to see TL's response to that last msg...hehe*