Hamas perpetuate suicide terrorism

[Magness]

Hiya, Silver Cheetah!!!

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


Hamas will only be satisfied with the total exodus of all Israelis from the state of Israel. This is clearly impossible. How can their demands be fulfilled? They can't!

I agree with what you say, but as far as Israel/Palestine goes, Hamas are flogging a dead horse, very much in the manner of the Real IRA splinter group, who are not interested in achieving peace by peaceful means, and will do anything to screw up the peace process.

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I was thinking the very same thing just before I read this. I think that the Hamas attacks were timed precisely to throw a wrench into the works of any negotiations.

Perhaps the biggest difference between Isreal/Palestine and Ireland/N.Ireland is that at least it appears that most people on the "emerald isle" want to, as they say, give peace a chance. It doesn't really appear to be that way in the Middle East. At the moment, it seems that the only ones that want peace there are the diplomats and a handful of moderates/liberals on both sides.

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Originally posted by S/C:


the Israeli hardliners have NOT wanted the peace process all along. Sharon really is a liability. He knows fine well that Arafat has limited control over Hamas (ie. practically none) and that over 50% of the population now support Hamas actions. Arafat is stuck between a rock and a hard place, and the Israelis have delibrately made his life harder by retaliating to Hamas almost before the corpses they made were cold, delibrately whipping up anti-Israeli feeling on the part of the Palestinians and antagonising them into a feeding frenzy.

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A couple things here...

1. While I personally argree with your apparant belief that you think that Arafat has little or no control over Hamas, Hezbullah, etc., it appears that the Israeli gov't (or at least Israeli conservatives) think otherwise. If they are to be taken at their word, the Israeli gov't is holding Arafat responsible for the latest Hamas attacks. If you are not taking them (i.e. Sharon, etc.) at their word, well ... Also, I suppose that the Isreali govt can believe that Arafat's responsible and be wrong. Who knows? I sure don't.

2. Have you ever heard the saying "Only Nixon could go to China"? If there's gonna be a peace agreement that Israel and its parliament will accept, my guess is that it would have to be while there is a conservative Israeli PM in power. Since Israeli conservatives are usually the ones opposing any agreements (from the Israeli side, of course), I think that only an agreement proposed by a conservative Isaeli PM has any chance of acceptance in the Israeli general populace.

Having said that, I tend to doubt that any Palestinian leader would ever be able to come to any sort of agreement with a conservative Israeli PM. Heck, if Arafat couldn't come to an agreement with Barak this past January, given how far Barak was reportedly willing to go, what makes anyone think that there will ever be a negotiated peace there?

I suppose that the way they're going there'll be peace over there when there are NO live Israelis and Palestinians left to kill each other.

[Argus]

IMO The biggest problem with Arafat is not his lack of control over Hamas, but the fact that he is a pawn in the much larger Israel vs. Arabia conflict. I believe that even if peace was reached tomorrow between the Palestinians and the Israelis, the conflict would continue. Hamas, or a sister group, would continue to strike blows against Israel from a base in one of many nearby countries (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt...you can almost take your pick). Whoever was in Arafat's position would be just as powerless as Arafat is now to stop the attacks.

The fact is that though many of Israel's Arab neighbors give political face time to the peace process they are still opposed to peace in the Middle East. Ironically, I don't believe this is solely based on religion or land (though these are the factors most commonly used to drum up public fervor) but also on the strength of the military establishment in these countries that justify their existence with the "conflict with Israel".

In a similar fashion, there are more politicians than you can count on one hand in Israel who have made careers over being hard-liners with the Arabs as well. I would hardly call Sharon "non-representative" of his party's beliefs.

I believe that the West is beginning to realize the futility of negotiating a peace process that does not include a BIG carrot to appease the warmongers that exist throughout the region. I don't expect such a carrot to appear in the near future. This is especially the case since the West has such a vested interest in keeping the coalition against terrorism together. The Arab nations' governments that have lent support to the coalition are precisely the ones who have the most to gain from continued instability in the region.

[Yorick]

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Originally posted by Fljotsdale:
Ronn_Bman has hit the nail on the head with his points regarding religion.
Religion is the most divisive factor on earth, has caused more deaths and more hatreds and immovable stances than anything else EVER. They are all so damn sure they are right and that god is on their side and that people on the other side deserve to die because they don't worship god the way they do - which justifies anything they may do, no matter how horrific. Hardliners on both sides of the Palestine/Israeli divide have that attitude.

I appreciate that the above comment is highly controversial, but history bears me out, imo.

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Oh what rot! It's a univerally unifying factor. Because of this it gets misused. Wars are fought by people, not by ideology or faith. None of the major world religions condone invasions or murder. Your view has been posted before, and as ever takes a superficial look at religions and the wars in their names.

Look at todays events. Islam, the "way of peace" jumped on by Wahabist extremists to pursue political agendas. Northern Irelands "religions" are simplistic racial indentifications. Easier than saying, "Original Irish" and "Descendants of Scots/English Colonists". The root of the Palestinian situation is between Jews and Arabs. Racial. Not Jews and Muslims. Plenty of Israelis are non-practicing, secular Jews, and Egypt, long an enemey of Israel is largely secular. Terrorist backing Syria has only 74% Islamic population.

If any of the worlds religions, or simply the ten commandments, were followed to the letter by their followers, there would be no war or hatred.

If you're looking for causes look no further than human nature. Greed and fear are the causes, things that religions try to curtail in Humankind.

I've already mentioned, that in New York, where racial and economic divisions run deep, the church I've been in is a melting pot. A place of unity and genuine love.

History most certainly does not bear you out Fljotsdale. It may seem so at a cursory glance, but with any understanding of the said religious teachings, one quickly recognises the hypocrisy of any who war in the name of Christ, Buddha or Allah.

Name any army who has invaded in the name of Buddha.

Name any army who marched in Confucius name, or that of the Rainbow Serpent, or the Apostle Paul. (Those who misused Catholicism to rally peasants in the Crusades were never into Paul, more Peter and Mary.)

How about torturers using the Tao as motivation for hate? or Martin Luther?

I'd hate to think the Salvation army are really an army.

Lets look at the majority of Muslims. The largest Islamic nation in the world is Indonesia. The last war Indonesia fought was against Holland for independance. Politics.

The repression of East Timor, Northern Sumatra and West Papua (Irian Jaya) has nothing to do with Religion. (Hindu Bali is not repressed.) But preventing the dismantling of an empire, and managing an exploding Javan population.

Most Muslims live in Peace. Most Christians live in Peace. Most Buddhists live in peace. Most Jews live in Peace. (There are more in America alone than the seven million in Israel)

It is such a broad simplistic generalisation to say "Religion is the most divisive factor on earth", and ignores the tsunami of evidence to the contrary - both present day and historicaly.

I do believe your apostasy has coloured your vision on this matter Fljotsdale.

Oh and please tell me where you got your figures in determining how "Religion....has caused more deaths.....than anything else EVER."
I would have thought old age or disease would have been number one. Didn't the black plague wipe out half of Europe? I know disease reduced South America's pre-colonial population of 27 million or so to around 4 million. (The number killed over 100 years is 23 million, I do know that.)

What are the figures of the aids epidemic, or cancer, next to a war using religion? The only "genuine" one possibly being India vs Pakistan.

Facts Fljotsdale. Facts. When making a controversial post such as yours which wipes mud in the face of any people of any faith or creed, make sure you have facts to back up your statements.

[Yorick]

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
Palestinians and Muslems throughout the Middle East have to understand that their holy lands are also holy to both Jews and Christians, .

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Ronn, Israel may have historical and emotional significance to a Christian, but to call it "holy" would be a misnomer. No one place is "holier" or more sanctified, than the next. Even a Church building. The Church is the sum of believers, not a place.

The Christian believes they have the omnipresent God inside. As such, wherever they are can be considered "holy". Any period of greater connection to that God is a result of an individuals mental shift, not God actually coming then going.

[Yorick]

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:

The fact that I have agreed with Yorick straight after the wedding is purely co-incidence, LOL! It is not an attempt to get more housekeeping out of him..... (Nebling more than meets my needs on that and all other fronts )

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You tell 'em babe.

[Neb]

I fear that I must agree with Yorick that religion isn't what divides people and brings them to make war upon one another, it's merely the LEADERS who SAY that they're fighting in the name of some religion or another in order to make people feel as though they have to join the battle because of their religion and to be fanatical about it since they feel that their religion is what's being attacked, while they are in fact only fighting for their own good.

Good post Yorick [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

However..... If there were no religions at all then things might be calmer because there would be less fanatics rallying around the banners of dictators believing that they're fighting for their religion.

On the other hand there might be more wars since people would have no "ten commandments" or other "words of god" telling them not to kill or steal or whatever......

[Neb]

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick:


When making a controversial post which wipes mud in the face of any people of any faith or creed, make sure you have facts to back up your statements.

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Just generally make sure you have the facts to back up your statements no matter what you post.

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick:
The Christian believes they have the omnipresent God inside.

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Absolutely true!

[Fljotsdale]

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick:


Oh what rot! It's a univerally unifying factor. Because of this it gets misused. Wars are fought by people, not by ideology or faith. None of the major world religions condone invasions or murder. Your view has been posted before, and as ever takes a superficial look at religions and the wars in their names.

Look at todays events. Islam, the "way of peace" jumped on by Wahabist extremists to pursue political agendas. Northern Irelands "religions" are simplistic racial indentifications. Easier than saying, "Original Irish" and "Descendants of Scots/English Colonists". The root of the Palestinian situation is between Jews and Arabs. Racial. Not Jews and Muslims. Plenty of Israelis are non-practicing, secular Jews, and Egypt, long an enemey of Israel is largely secular. Terrorist backing Syria has only 74% Islamic population.

If any of the worlds religions, or simply the ten commandments, were followed to the letter by their followers, there would be no war or hatred.

If you're looking for causes look no further than human nature. Greed and fear are the causes, things that religions try to curtail in Humankind.

I've already mentioned, that in New York, where racial and economic divisions run deep, the church I've been in is a melting pot. A place of unity and genuine love.

History most certainly does not bear you out Fljotsdale. It may seem so at a cursory glance, but with any understanding of the said religious teachings, one quickly recognises the hypocrisy of any who war in the name of Christ, Buddha or Allah.

Name any army who has invaded in the name of Buddha.

Name any army who marched in Confucius name, or that of the Rainbow Serpent, or the Apostle Paul. (Those who misused Catholicism to rally peasants in the Crusades were never into Paul, more Peter and Mary.)

How about torturers using the Tao as motivation for hate? or Martin Luther?

I'd hate to think the Salvation army are really an army.

Lets look at the majority of Muslims. The largest Islamic nation in the world is Indonesia. The last war Indonesia fought was against Holland for independance. Politics.

The repression of East Timor, Northern Sumatra and West Papua (Irian Jaya) has nothing to do with Religion. (Hindu Bali is not repressed.) But preventing the dismantling of an empire, and managing an exploding Javan population.

Most Muslims live in Peace. Most Christians live in Peace. Most Buddhists live in peace. Most Jews live in Peace. (There are more in America alone than the seven million in Israel)

It is such a broad simplistic generalisation to say "Religion is the most divisive factor on earth", and ignores the tsunami of evidence to the contrary - both present day and historicaly.

I do believe your apostasy has coloured your vision on this matter Fljotsdale.

Oh and please tell me where you got your figures in determining how "Religion....has caused more deaths.....than anything else EVER."
I would have thought old age or disease would have been number one. Didn't the black plague wipe out half of Europe? I know disease reduced South America's pre-colonial population of 27 million or so to around 4 million. (The number killed over 100 years is 23 million, I do know that.)

What are the figures of the aids epidemic, or cancer, next to a war using religion? The only "genuine" one possibly being India vs Pakistan.

Facts Fljotsdale. Facts. When making a controversial post such as yours which wipes mud in the face of any people of any faith or creed, make sure you have facts to back up your statements.

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I am happy to accept that a lot of what you say is true, Yorick. Especially the fact that the teachings of most religions lean heavily on the side of peace.
BUT..... I am not talking about the TEACHINGS of religions here, Yorick, but about the PRACTICE of them. I did not make that clear in my post - my apologies! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Religious extemists, of whatever belief system, are usually deeply devout but terribly misguided/ignorant people who are USED, often by the religious leaders of their community, sometimes by military leaders, or by both working together. The aim of such leaders is power, and the destruction/subjugation of anyone who doesn't 'believe'. People like bin Laden (and others it is more prudent not to name) are coldly and calculatingly rousing and using religious fervour for the furtherence of whatever aims they have.
Religion used in this way only unites the followers of that particular belief. It causes the alienation of all other belief systems and schisms within its own body.
Even when religion is not used in this way, it is still divisive, not uniting, for the simple reason that Catholics do not believe in the same things as Protestants; neither believe the same things as Muslims, Shintoists, Hindus, Wicca, or whatever.
Yes, I have said this before. No, it is not shallow, imo. But YOUR stance that religion is UNITING is blind to the realities, imo.
So there! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[John D Harris]

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Originally posted by Fljotsdale:
Don't misunderstand what I am about to say, because I condemn terrorism unreservedly...... but..... almost all freedoms, as someone pointed out in another thread, have been won through bloodshed. Terrorists ARE freedom fighters, whether we consider their actions justified or not.
For example, in America it was not just peaceful protest that got human rights for black Americans, but also violence.... In India, it was not only peaceful protest that won freedon from British rule, but also violence....
I don't approve of violence. Too many get killed who do not deserve it. But I have a little understanding, I think, of the motivation for terrorism. It is a natural human desire for freedom and security and justice.
We will never get rid of terrorists until we get rid of the injustices that cause and perpetuate it.

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Miss Fljotsdale ma'am, I don't know if anyone had pointed this out to you but it was the PEACEFUL PROTESTS that brought about civil rights for American citizens that happen to have dark pigmented skin! For those American citizens to act in anyother way would have been their movement's demise. Dr. Martin Luther King is remembered and revered for his peaceful actions.
Whose injustice? The injustice that the terrorist proceives(sp?)to justify their actions? Does that not create a new injustice to be proceived by the other side!