John Pilger's religion.

[Yorick]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fljotsdale:


Ahhhhh, Yorick, Yorick! I'm afraid I have too much plain common-sense! The Monty Python thing is a clear statement of my position on this, lol!

We are not going to agree on this one - but, hey! - nothing new about that!

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Well we don't have to. I'm right [img]tongue.gif[/img] I have artists, promoters and appreciators, and most importantly - THE ARTIST HIMSELF, on my side .

The debate about "What is art" is as exhaustive as it is fruitless. Like Canute's tidal attempts, refutations of the validity of such work will dissolve into the pages of art history with the footnoted tag: "controversial".

[img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fljotsdale:


Ahhhhh, Yorick, Yorick! I'm afraid I have too much plain common-sense! The Monty Python thing is a clear statement of my position on this, lol!

We are not going to agree on this one - but, hey! - nothing new about that!

---

Fljotsdale, just a quick appendix.

Who ever said art had to be serious?

[Yorick]

Hmmmmm [img]smile.gif[/img] I just tried the light switchy thingy. Compelling [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

I don't see how you can argue with this:

quote:

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"Here is just the light, no more no less. Appealingly simple. So different would the walls look with the light on than off.

The art takes place in the moments of transition.

It also captures something of life. How many of us have switched a light on and off, only to have a parent chide that it'll blow the fuse. The effect though is tantalising."

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If at least one person finds value in art, it is valid. Same with music. Not everyone "gets it". The key question is, do some?

I find value in it. So obviously did the people putting on the show.

Thus it is art Fljotsdale. Art is a definition unrestricted by taste. That you don't like it doesn't mean it's not art, it means you don't like it.

I have a record by Brian Eno and Robert Fripp.

For twenty minutes the first track consists of ONE HELD NOTE.

It gradually changes.

Most don't get it, some do. Thus it's music, not noise. It effects an emotional and intellectual response.

It doesn't matter whether you agree or not Fljotsdale. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Fljotsdale]

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick:
I don't see how you can argue with this:


If at least one person finds value in art, it is valid. Same with music. Not everyone "gets it". The key question is, do some?

I find value in it. So obviously did the people putting on the show.

Thus it is art Fljotsdale. Art is a definition unrestricted by taste. That you don't like it doesn't mean it's not art, it means you don't like it.

I have a record by Brian Eno and Robert Fripp.

For twenty minutes the first track consists of ONE HELD NOTE.

It gradually changes.

Most don't get it, some do. Thus it's music, not noise. It effects an emotional and intellectual response.

It doesn't matter whether you agree or not Fljotsdale. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Yorick ]

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Actually, Yorick - (sit down and take a deeeeep breath) I agree with that! [img]graemlins/evilhaha.gif[/img] In principle.

But I still believe that turning a light on/off, an umade bed, and a pile of bricks (all 'art' of recent years in the UK) are just tongue-in-cheek scams to con the gullible. And no-one will convince me otherwise!
Its not Art, its con-Art, imo. Why? 'Cos any idiot can do it and it requres no skill whatever - though I admit it needs a bit of raw cheek and a fertile imagination! Such 'artists' are the 'spivs' of the Art world and they push more talented people out of the public eye.
Nice try though! You *almost* convinced me, lol!

[ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: Fljotsdale ]

[Yorick]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fljotsdale:

though I admit it needs a.........fertile imagination!

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Exactly. Imagination without the limits of ability. Should art only be praticed by the gifted? Or can giftings be in the way someone communicates an idea or a reflection of life.

I like "bricks" myself. "Unmade bed" doesn't do much for me, but I recognise it's message.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

[Fljotsdale]

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick:


Exactly. Imagination without the limits of ability. Should art only be praticed by the gifted? Or can giftings be in the way someone communicates an idea or a reflection of life.

I like "bricks" myself. "Unmade bed" doesn't do much for me, but I recognise it's message.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

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You think ability is limiting? [img]graemlins/crazyeyes.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/1dizzy.gif[/img] LACK of ability is limiting! If you had said 'training' then I would agree in part - formal art training CAN limit ability and imagination if not done well. But it can also help the artist to learn to use the tools of his/her trade effectively.
Knowing how to handle your tools frees you to relax and experiment. Learning the same stuff on your own takes ages and you may not find out stuff that would be really helpful. Are you a self-taught musician or did you have training? And is your teaching limiting the ability of your students? Or giving them, at least, food for thought?

And of course art should NOT only be practiced by the gifted! And not all art, as you said previously, needs to be be beautiful - nor does it need to be long-lasting. Much ephemeral art brings great pleasure to people, myself included. Artistic ability, be it great or small, is a possesion of all of us, if we care to attempt it and put in some effort, and it does not have to be conventional (OR unconventional!) to capture the interest and make a point.
Many people with only small ability produce art that gives them great pleasure - but I would not dream of putting my own efforts on public display, lol!

And, as I said, nothing will convice me that an unmade bed, a pile of bricks, and a light flicking on/off in an empty room, are actually art.
A painting or photograph of the bed or the bricks, lit for effect, could be art - and good art - so I suppose it could be said that the real thing is art as well. But it isn't in these cases. No skill involved. No artistic ability. Just a talent as con-artists! In my jaundiced opinion, anyway!

[tracey]

i want to get hold of a copy of laurie anderson's record superman. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. etc.,

absolutely amazing and deeply lovely.

fljotsdale - you are, without doubt, the most revolting philistine it has ever been my misfortune to meet [img]smile.gif[/img] i still love you, though. kiss, kiss.

modernism was one of the hardest modules i ever did - possibly, in retrospect, because the lecturers couldn't quite explain what they meant, it's history or its application to contemporary and post modern art. think yourself lucky, lady, that you never had to wade through the likes of ezra ****** pound and associated artists, architects and writers. by the end of it i understood pretty thoroughly what is was all about - the politics and history if the movement in particular. the actual 'art' was never a problem as it was so obviously kicking against the pricks!


you like my collages though? they're post modern, you know (which is far worse tee, hee).

hope the t.v. thing was fun. speak to you later.
at some point we may meet again. p.s. what are you doing for the winter festival thingy? you may wish to eat at my house - got the boys' possibly also paul and his brother. let me know if you fancy it.

[Fljotsdale]

quote:

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Originally posted by tracey:
i want to get hold of a copy of laurie anderson's record superman. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. etc.,

absolutely amazing and deeply lovely.

fljotsdale - you are, without doubt, the most revolting philistine it has ever been my misfortune to meet [img]smile.gif[/img] i still love you, though. kiss, kiss.

modernism was one of the hardest modules i ever did - possibly, in retrospect, because the lecturers couldn't quite explain what they meant, it's history or its application to contemporary and post modern art. think yourself lucky, lady, that you never had to wade through the likes of ezra ****** pound and associated artists, architects and writers. by the end of it i understood pretty thoroughly what is was all about - the politics and history if the movement in particular. the actual 'art' was never a problem as it was so obviously kicking against the pricks!


you like my collages though? they're post modern, you know (which is far worse tee, hee).

hope the t.v. thing was fun. speak to you later.
at some point we may meet again. p.s. what are you doing for the winter festival thingy? you may wish to eat at my house - got the boys' possibly also paul and his brother. let me know if you fancy it.

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Hiya, sweetie-pie! Yeah, I agree about the Superman thingie... fantastic.
I like your art, my love, even if it is post-modern! But I never could get my head round post-modernism and I'm VERY glad we only touched on it briefly in MY literature studies, lol! Gimme Chaucer anyday! Great writing and some very... er... how shall I say?... um... shockingly LEWD stories, lol! Also some rather boring ones!

It's not that I'm too old to appreciate post-modernism - I just don't have the faintest desire to! Never liked anything I ever read by Ezra Pound. TS Eliot I like, though.

Winter holiday suggestion might be fun...

The tv programme was good!

Saz or Memnoch, or any mod who sees this.... can you move all the 'arty' stuff in this thread to a new thread in the General Discussions forum? I think a lot of other people might like to join in.

[Yorick]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fljotsdale:


You think ability is limiting? [img]graemlins/crazyeyes.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/1dizzy.gif[/img] LACK of ability is limiting! If you had said 'training' then I would agree in part - formal art training CAN limit ability and imagination if not done well. But it can also help the artist to learn to use the tools of his/her trade effectively.
Knowing how to handle your tools frees you to relax and experiment. Learning the same stuff on your own takes ages and you may not find out stuff that would be really helpful. Are you a self-taught musician or did you have training? And is your teaching limiting the ability of your students? Or giving them, at least, food for thought?

And of course art should NOT only be practiced by the gifted! And not all art, as you said previously, needs to be be beautiful - nor does it need to be long-lasting. Much ephemeral art brings great pleasure to people, myself included. Artistic ability, be it great or small, is a possesion of all of us, if we care to attempt it and put in some effort, and it does not have to be conventional (OR unconventional!) to capture the interest and make a point.
Many people with only small ability produce art that gives them great pleasure - but I would not dream of putting my own efforts on public display, lol!

And, as I said, nothing will convice me that an unmade bed, a pile of bricks, and a light flicking on/off in an empty room, are actually art.
A painting or photograph of the bed or the bricks, lit for effect, could be art - and good art - so I suppose it could be said that the real thing is art as well. But it isn't in these cases. No skill involved. No artistic ability. Just a talent as con-artists! In my jaundiced opinion, anyway!

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Everyones ability has limitations.

Fljotsdale, would a photo of a pile of bricks be art? What about a painting? A mini sculpture of the bricks?

These are art, yet merely momentarily capture the object. The beauty of "bricks" is that it IS the object.

Cannot the stone be beautiful? The shape of many squares creating a rectangle? Simple, timeless. Anyone could have made it.

That is the key. Anyone can go and make a pile of bricks, and look at it with the satisfaction that we have made art. What matters is our perception. Being able to see beauty in mundane.

That is the beauty in "bricks". The possibilities it allows.

The world is a very beautiful place.