More reason for you Terrorist Supporters to Cheer

[shamrock_uk]

Enforcing democracy on a country that did not have it before is a contradiction.

[ 06-18-2004, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

Hmmm no....can't see it as a contradiction....allowing the people to decide who they want to govern them...while different it doesnt really make it contradictory.....just different. In theory the can vote them selves back into a dictatorship if they wish eventually. Just not immediately

[shamrock_uk]

But democracy by definition is 'government by the people, for the people, of the people'. It's hardly the situation we see in Iraq. Asides from which, its pretty much doomed to failure in the first place. I will be absolutely amazed if it works in Iraq; you can't help wondering that if Bush had read anything about Iraqi history he would have realised that you need a strong central government to keep control. The Bush administration has said itself a mammoth challenge here...

[John D Harris]

[quote]Originally posted by shamrock_uk:

I would laugh at you. But somehow it would just take away the horror I just felt at reading your words. Read them again. Then imagine a Russian general in the Cold War saying the same thing about an American city. What right do you have to do that to another country? I'm pretty sure if Russian nukes flattened LA or New York 'just because they could' and they decided to crack down on some enemies, your opinion would be very different. Come on! In any case, the actions you describe are hardly the mark of a so-called 'liberating force'. Not much point in bringing democracy (contradiction that it is) to a country which has no cities left. (Edits)

If you've read much of what I've writen you'd see from the very begining 9/12/2001 I stated war is terrible, horrible and bloody, people die, are mamed and IT must not be entered into lightly, BUT when it is entered into it must be done with extreme prejudice, no mercy, kill all your enemy and their damn goats.

And for your information I grew up on USAF bases both SAC and TAC bases we were target #1 for the USSR. hell we didn't even have drop and cover drills cause we knew it wouldn't do any good. SO no my opinion wouldn't be differant, I believe if you're going to do something do it all the way and not half assed. If your goal is to kill as many of who ever stands in your way then kill'em don't yap at them. If your goal is to yap then talk their damn ear off for all I care.

I got no problem being called a war monger.

When the media cries about some prisoners, you call a press conference and in front of the gathered vultures you show the film of Sodamn Insane's torturing of people then tell the gathered press to shut the hell up and the press conference is over.

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: But democracy by definition is 'government by the people, for the people, of the people'. It's hardly the situation we see in Iraq. Asides from which, its pretty much doomed to failure in the first place. I will be absolutely amazed if it works in Iraq; you can't help wondering that if Bush had read anything about Iraqi history he would have realised that you need a strong central government to keep control. The Bush administration has said itself a mammoth challenge here...

First "The PEOPLE" have to be free to choose their own path...and after GENERATIONS of opression it takes a while for them to actually realize that they are free and CAN choose. So you have to put an environment for them to LEARN this stuff in place...hence they have a brand spankin new Constitution and eventually we will kill all the outsiders interfering and killing Iraqi's in the name of their fanatical interpretation of the Koran. I think it is not only do able but that we are well on the road.....so far our only mistake is not being tough enough. In that part of the world compassion is taken as a sign of weakness. We have to build up the Iraqi's confidence and courage.....really it is much like you treat new recruits in basic training...you are hard on them..but it is for a good reason and necessary.

J.D. I agree..if you are going to do something DO IT, don't ■■■■■ foot around. Just get it done. However...Im not sure we have to take ALL compassion out of the equation.

[shamrock_uk]

Originally posted by John D Harris: I got no problem being called a war monger.

I noticed. And somehow i'd never have guessed you're from the US military...

Magik - democracy is an extremely recent western invention. Due to the comparatively short period its been around, it is not possible to say whether this is the 'best' system or simply the one that happens to be fashionable at this moment in time.

For democracy to be 'by the people' and 'of the people' it has to evolve naturally within that country. If its imposed on another country then this is not the case. Plus, for observers in the Middle-East, the imposition of democracy is just another example of Western cultural imperialism, and therefore not the best choice anyway.

Also the idea that giving the population a say in politics is a 'good' thing is rather contentious. Given how uninformed the average member of the public is about current events and politics, how is it beneficial that they can make or break a government? It's this that has led to the rise of 'spin' and the immense political power of the media who have the ability to form the opinions of the masses who don't have one of their own.

Plus, why should you have a 'right' to determine who runs the country? This has not been the case for the thousands of years of human history - to say that the last fifty or hundred years is somehow the 'right' system flies in the face of experience. Ironically, the best 'western' form of government would be the one devised by Plato, yet the Islamic empires, including the early Ottoman one, have been the only ones to implement it. This was done with great success, despite an obvious lack of exposure to Plato.

Also consider that given the idea that democracy is somehow the 'holy grail', it is interesting to note that legislation (in all Western countries, but most notably America) is constantly seeking to restrict democratic power and increase dictatorial ones. If democracy is so good, why is this the case?

[ 06-18-2004, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

Hmm recent? Seems to me Ancient Greece wasn't quite so recent [img]smile.gif[/img]

The rest of your logic doesnt hold any water though.

What right does a citizen have to stop a mugger from mugging his victim?

What right does a person have to stop someone from raping his 3 year old daughter?

When a people are Opressed (and there is no question in any official body about Saddam having oppressed the people) people of good will and ability will come to their aid.

As for the ancient empires of the middle east....there is a reason they are ancient andnot current....they FAILED. It is a fact that were it not for the $$$$ (and their Oil which westerners found and enabled them to exploit I might add) from the western nations these "third world countries" would be ...nothing but memories and camel hearders with nothing of worth to the rest of the world.

There is a thing called progress. We have progressed and just because "Ancient Ways" came first, doesnt mean they should stay in place.....

If one were to believe that...I would heartily reccomend that they move into a cave somewhere and live as the Cave Man did.

[ 06-18-2004, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Timber Loftis]

But democracy by definition is 'government by the people, for the people, of the people'. It's hardly the situation we see in Iraq.

That's not true. It is the situation we are trying to give Iraqis. You may have noted that the provisional government, particularly the PM, is insisting on certain things from the US. We are trying to give them control of their country, and we can already see how doing this is resulting in increased demands on us. Yet we do it nevertheless. The US has always been loathe to occupy.

[Black Baron]

Shamrock-the tactics that John D Harris suggests, will end the terror in no time (couple of monthes). The english had done it here, in 20-is. They had problem with water pumps in Kineret (our only lake). The arabs destroyed the water pumps. English destroyed 2-3 houses and the saboteurs stopped.