Views on EU enlargement

[Yorick]

Originally posted by johnny: i can't think of anything why we should let them in.

Because it's the same nation? Sorry... will be the same nation.

"The United States of Europe" isn't it.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Skunk: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: [qb] Oh I think it's very apt. It's about time Europe reaped what it sowed.

Which is what?
[/QUOTE]As I responded to your comments on European colonialism/imperialism, that would be immigration. A movement of peoples into your neck of the woods.

quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Nonetheless, antiimmigrationism is one short microstep away from RACISM.

Well for a start I'm not against immigration. But I am pro-immigration control. [/QUOTE]Er.... that would mean you are anti-immigration.

In any case your views here are pretty well clear. You're a racist who wants to keep the Poles away from your neighbourhood. Pretty clear where you sit from where I stand.

No economy can afford to simply throw open its doors to all and sundry without suffering ruination. You would be *very* challenged to find any country in the world that does not have such a policy - and to suggest that immigration control is racist is label every country in the world as racist - and as such, just plain daft.

Who's talking economics? I'm not. I simply said that open-door immigration built the federations of America and Australia. Economic sense, and human compassion do not always marry. It may not make economic sense to let the boatpeople or war refugees, or starving jobseekers into your country, but it sure is immoral to turn them away. I'm not arguing an economic case, though I am pointing out the realities of the rapid development that flows from immigration. From demand of services, to manpower.

As Timber pointed out, you have an interesting set of double standards there Skunk.

Read the forum rules before you make statements like that.

It shouldn't be insulting to you. They're your views your espousing. You're preaching discrimination. "Stay at home immigrant". Racist bigot parties like "One Nation" in Australia preach the same thing.

Originally posted by Skunk: [qb] Austrailia is desperately attempting to limit the flow of immigrants into the country using questionable tactics (see: http://www.refugeesaustralia.org ) as a way of deterring would be migrants. Such is the damage to the economy that an unrestricted flow represents. The United states is also seeing problems from the ever increasing uncontrolled flow of Mexicans - esp. social problems (see: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...CLE_ID=25920).

I am well aware of the immigration issues with both countries, having lived in both. I am also aware of the arguments in government circles arguing FOR greater immigration.

States like Tenessee turn a blind eye to the Mexican immigrancy issue precisely because of the economic blessing they are.

Originally posted by Yorick: [qb] Or in other words, the immigrants can live in shanty towns on the edge of the city, cleaning your toilet, eh? How generous!

Er... no, an immigrant lives in my house and cleans my toilet. That would be me. I am not American.

As far as the Chinese immigrant who cleans the toilets at work, she's a blessing. Someone has to do the job.

Unless you're suggesting the job shouldn;t get done, or that somehow humans who do these jobs are lesser than those who don't?

Originally posted by Yorick: [qb] If you are not allowed to work in your profession by the immigration authorities or suffer from a racist atmosphere where 'the guy from the eastern block aint good enough to work here', then yes I imagine that they will take whatever work they can find - but Europe isn't like that.

Oh yes it is. Certain qualifications don't transfer across languages and cultures. Even from Western nation to Western nation if regulational laws are different.

[johnny]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by johnny: i can't think of anything why we should let them in.

Because it's the same nation? Sorry... will be the same nation.

"The United States of Europe" isn't it. [/QUOTE]Good point, but it's more a group of nations working together economically. We are and never will be one people, there's just too many differences, and i'm not just talking about the language. We would do better to invest in the Polish economy, so they can create jobs of their own, instead of inviting 22.000 well educated Polish who are willing to work for half the salary a Dutchman would make. That isn't fair to our own well educated people, who all have high hopes of good jobs. After all, that's what they've studied for. It would be bitter if next years college graduates can't find jobs, because they are taken by eastern Europeans who are willing to do the same job for much less.

That's not helping eachother economically, that's asking for trouble, creating intolerance.

[Oblivion437]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by promethius9594: <- me: looks at the european union and ponders bi-superpower world again...

Then look at China and imagine the wonders of the tri-superpower world. [/QUOTE]If they ever get around to developing transport systems sufficient to move their army out of SE asia, then we'll have a problem. Until then China's just a mad old hermit who waves his old Hawkins rifle at strangers.

I doubt the EU is going to go head-to-head in a bipartisan war of egos with the US. No one's putting up with that shit TWICE in 100 years. Would be kinda fun from one angle, but totally unacceptable from the other, more perceptive angle.

[Timber Loftis]

And besides, there's plenty of people here who can clean those toilets, except they don't want that. Instead they choose to stay home and live on welfare, the easy way out.

Did you move to America recently???

[johnny]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: And besides, there's plenty of people here who can clean those toilets, except they don't want that. Instead they choose to stay home and live on welfare, the easy way out.

Did you move to America recently??? [/QUOTE]I wish.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by johnny: Good point, but it's more a group of nations working together economically. We are and never will be one people, there's just too many differences, and i'm not just talking about the language.

Hmmmm. That sounds like the United States of America... You may need a little thing called "European Patriotism" to unite you all.

Europe's unification ios probably inevitable. History is repeating
if
Europe = The German Empire
then
Germany = Prussia,
England = Austria,
France = Bavaria.

England could, like Austria, get left out of the eventual union for example.

As for Poles... loads of them came over to America. Helped build the country into what it is. I know some very wonderful Polish-Americans. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: If they ever get around to developing transport systems sufficient to move their army out of SE asia, then we'll have a problem. Until then China's just a mad old hermit who waves his old Hawkins rifle at strangers.

So a mad old Hermit kept your boys out of Vietnam and Korea did they? That was when they were slumbering. Now the Dragon is waking up.

I doubt the EU is going to go head-to-head in a bipartisan war of egos with the US. No one's putting up with that shit TWICE in 100 years. Would be kinda fun from one angle, but totally unacceptable from the other, more perceptive angle.

They already are. Economically they already have. Like England going head to head with Holland economically when she first started becoming a mercantile sea power, let's hope it doesn't spill into arms.

[johnny]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by johnny: Good point, but it's more a group of nations working together economically. We are and never will be one people, there's just too many differences, and i'm not just talking about the language.

Hmmmm. That sounds like the United States of America... You may need a little thing called "European Patriotism" to unite you all.

Europe's unification ios probably inevitable. History is repeating
if
Europe = The German Empire
then
Germany = Prussia,
England = Austria,
France = Bavaria.

England could, like Austria, get left out of the eventual union for example.

As for Poles... loads of them came over to America. Helped build the country into what it is. I know some very wonderful Polish-Americans. [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]You can't compare the US with Europe, not in any way. The Europeans who went there, all shared the same dream, and together they created what the US is today. Europeans have been at eachothers throats for as long as europe exists, varying from minor annoyances, to pure hatred. I don't believe there are two states in the US who have the same relationship as Greece and Turkey, just to name one. But there are more, such as the Croats and the Serbs. Those people don't just not like eachother, they are willing to kill eachother. Can you name two factions in the US who are willing to go that far ?

And another example of how diverse Europe is, is Spain. Within Spain you have several groups who would like nothing more than to seperate from Madrid, the Basks and the Catalans. Think of Spain as an example for the rest of Europe, a small powerful group tries to unite the whole thing, while the majority simply hates eachothers guts.

Too many things have happened in the past, things that won't be put aside that easily. I wish it was that simple, but it isn't.

[Dreamer128]

Luckily, people do have the ability to change over time. France and Germany for example. Through out the course of history, they've been at each others throats. In fact, Two World wars were the result of their hatred for each other (with WWII being the aftermath of WWI). Now, they're each others closest allies. I'm not saying things are simple. But such changes are not impossible. Only improbably. Besides, we don't have to become 'One Europe' the work closely together. Everyone can keep their national identity.

[ 05-15-2004, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]