Contradictions in religion (spin-off from the gay marriage 2 thread)

[John D Harris]

Sorry Chewie I didn't know I'd open up this can of worms RL has got'n in the way, lots of jobs to get out and little time to do them [img]smile.gif[/img] or depends how you look at them I guess.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: I was totally skeptical of God with regards to the bible. The writings of Zecharia Sitchen are very responsible for my total lack of beleif in the God described in the Bible now.

Sorry, more fuzzy belief stuff from my POV. The universe was, is, and will be. It is the eternal. And we are merely food for worms.
[/QUOTE]I knew you were a man of faith, it takes faith to believe that the universe is eternal, when you and I won't be around to see past 70-80 years

[John D Harris]

Since I've missed most of this and I'm tired from working 14 hour days, somebody please catch me up on the general contrdictions discussed, plus I'm to lazy to read every page

[Faceman]

This thread started out on the last pages of "same-sex marriage thread #2"
It became a discussion about whether the Bible contradicts itself or not. And if it does only on minor issues or generally. just try to read up the first page of this topic and you'll be up to date.

[John D Harris]

Since I've been gone I'll try and tackle a couple of these a night, So everybody keep checking this post for updates [img]smile.gif[/img]
New updates added.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: quote: Should we kill? Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill." Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death." vs. Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor." I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter." I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword." Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up." For a discussion of the defense that the Commandments prohibit only murder, see "Murder, He Wrote", chapter 27 (Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist).

I thunk Yorick showed that it is a missinterpitation to use the word kill.
Hosea 13:16 That's a prophecy saying these are the consequences of your actions nothing more it is not saying killing is ok any more then you telling your children that if they commit murder in certain States they will be subject to the death penalty.
Numbers 15:36 The carring out of an execution, proving that the intent of "Thou shall not Kill" realy means murder.
I Samuel 15 War not murder see above.
I Samuel 6:19 Carring out an multible execution for disobeying God. Remenber God says "Thou shall not kill" not I shall not kill. And spare me the "do as I say not as I do" load, since this is used as proof of contradiction of "Thou shall not Kill" and not No one shall ever Kill.
Exodus 32:27 Carring out a multible execution for disobeying God, Not murder.

Should we tell lies? Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness." Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord." vs. I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee." II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

IKings 22:23 The context of the passage is: God alowed the prophets to be decieved, but he also provided the truth before any action was taken by Ahab and Jehoshaphat. Ahab's prophets were false prophets there which by nature were already filled with lies hence the name "False prophets" God then sent His prophet to tell Ahab & Jehoshaphat, only through God's prophet do we learn that Ahab's prophets have been decieved. Ahab has the choice to believe Micaiah or his own prophets. Now I do not know why God approved of that plan, I suspect it was to show the falsehood of Ahab's prophets and the truth of His prophet (just my oppinon). No matter Ahab had a choice before he & Jehosaphat took any action, comitted any sin.
II Thessalonians 2:11 In context the verse before and after use the past tense, meaning the people talked about have already made their choice of action, God sends them a delusion that they might, should, could, given the opportunity (depending on the translation), but all agree that it is in the future tense meaning they have an the option.
Joshua 2:4-6 That records a lie of Rahab not God.
James 2:25 Says Rahab was justified for receiving the messengers, and sending them out by another way. It does not say she was justified for lying, but given that she is a failable human I would suspect she was forgiven for her sin.

Should we steal? Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal." Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him." vs. Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians." Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians." Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him." I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.

Exodus 3:22 Whoa way out of context The verse before says they (the children of Israel) will find favour in the eyes of the Eyptians that they should not go out empty handed. The Egyptians are going to like them and give them their stuff to get rid of them. Remember the Egyptians just suffered the effects of the pluages, they didn't want a piece of the Israelites any more
Exodus 12:35-36 same out of context for a re-narration of the same story. Did anybody notice the words "requested of them", used in the surrounding verses, depending on the translation I'll bet words the convey the same idea the Israelites asked for the items and were given them, not stole them or took them without permission.
Luke 19:29-34 No record is made of the owners reply so it is an Asumption that the owners didn't give premission. there is Not enough imformation given to prove one way or the other. IIRC it seems there was part of the Law of Moses that stated if anyone says "that the Lord had need of something" the owners were to let them have it. The owners would have been under the Law of Moses since Christ had not been crucified yet.

Shall we keep the sabbath? Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy." Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death." Numbers 15:32,36 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. . . . And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." vs. Isaiah 1:13 "The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity." John 5:16 "And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day." Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."

Isaiah 1:13 out of context continue to read the rest of the chapter, and you'll see the reason God didn't accept "their sabbaths" or any other thing they did was because they were not keeping the sabbath holy or doing things in a manner worthy of their calling. see verse 2,3,4. Verses 16 & 17 They were unclean, or why else would they be told to make themselves clean?
John 5:16 I'll knock this one out of the ballpark and give the same answer Christ gave to his accussers. Note the verses following verse 16 and you will see Christ states he is equal to God, God commands the Israelites to keep the sabbath holy not Himself. Now here's a couple more for you Matt 12, Mark 3, & Luke 6
Colossians 2:16, I think I'll go 3 for 3 on this one. Keep the sabbath holy was part of the Law of Moses which the Jews where under, Colossians is writen to Christians who are not under the Law of Moses. Attempting to apply this as a contradiction is like saying it's a contradiction for US citizens to not follow the law of the UK after the revolutionary war and we won our independence.

Shall we make graven images? Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water." Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone." Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image." vs. Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them." I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"

Exodus 20:4 The line stated is out of context, where is the part before and after about worshiping God and the graven image. When taken in context this passage clearly means making of an image to worship as if it was a god. IMHO this is the whopper of out of context. the best example of how far out of context this is I offer the following JFK quote "what can your country do for you"
Leviticus 26:1 Also talking about bowing down to the image, worshiping it, instead of God.
Deuteronomy27:15 "and sets it up in secret" (to finish the quote accurately) Now given the fact that the Israelites were forbidden to worship a graven image why would someone make a graven image and set it up in secret? Come on lets be honest here you don't set up a graven image in secret, keep it hidden, shelter it away from the eyes of others, because you think it is a nice piece of art.

Are we saved through works? Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works." Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight." Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ." vs. James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven." The common defense here is that "we are saved by faith and works." But Paul said "not of works."

Paul is talking about us being able to save ourselves through our works, which we can not do. Can anything anybody do remove anything else they have done? Or does it merely make restituion? Resititution is not the same as removal. If you steal something from somebody and give it back does the remove the fact you stole it? No it just means you gave it back, not that you didn't steal it. And since "All have fallen short of the glory of God" (sinned). The is nothing we can ever do to remove that sin, only Christ can remove the sin for those that believe, thus we are saved by faith and not of our works.
James say "not of faith only", I can use " " also
How is faith manifest? Would Abraham had faith if he would have sat on his rear end and said I know God will raise Issac from the dead so I won't sacrifice him? That's not faith, note Hebrew 11:1 "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen" The words "assurance of things hoped for", "conviction" are those words of passiveness or of action? You make the call? (baltantly stolen from the ALCOA comercial during football games)

Should good works be seen? Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works." I Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that . . . they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation." vs. Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them . . . that thine alms may be in secret." Matthew 23:3,5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works. . . . all their works they do for to be seen of men."

I feel like those crash test dummies on the radio commercial "this must be mis-conception mania"
I'll Tackle the second ones first. In both of those verses the REASON that the actions are being done is to be seen, and seen only. Note the words "to be seen" and agian "they do to be seen of men" now if the verses were quoted in context there would also be added "they recieve their reward. In other words they do these thing to be seen and are seen.
Now the first ones:
Matthew 5:16 Purpose of being seen IS so that they may glorify God, NOT to be seen of men. The two are not for the same reason.
IPeter 2:12 Most translations are of the passive nature on this verse, in other words if your actions are seen, observed, or may be seen. Not make sure your actions are observed which would in contradiction of Matthew 6 & 23.

Should we own slaves? Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever." Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren." Exodus 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do." Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it." Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters." vs. Isaiah 58:6 "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke." Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ." Pro-slavery bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here.

Slave, or free does not matter to God (Believe me I can back that statment up with verses.) God is interested in the souls of men, and offers to save them NO MATTER what their station in life is. I bet he doesn't even care if you're liberal This whole line of reasoning is a non-starter many of the Anti verses use the word servant not slave there is a difference, a butler is a servant a maid is a servant, an employee is a servant.

Does God change his mind?

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

vs.

Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he was playing with Abraham's hopes for mercy--he destroyed the city anyway.)

Are we punished for our parents' sins?

Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)
Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, . . ."

vs.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Is God good or evil?

Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."

vs.

Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7.
Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."

Does God tempt people?

James 1:13 "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

vs.

Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."

Is God peaceable?

Romans 15:33 "The God of peace."
Isaiah 2:4 ". . . and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

vs.

Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war."
Joel 3:9-10 "Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."

Was Jesus peaceable?

John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you."
Acts 10:36 "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ."
Luke 2:14 " . . . on earth peace, good will toward men."

vs.

Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."
Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, . . . he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Was Jesus trustworthy?

John 8:14 "Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true."

vs.

John 5:31 "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."
"Record" and "witness" in the above verses are the same Greek word (martyria).

Shall we call people names?

Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire." [Jesus speaking]

vs.

Matthew 23:17 "Ye fools and blind." [Jesus speaking]
Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

Has anyone seen God?

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."
Exodus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God [Jesus], he hath seen the Father."
I John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time."

vs.

Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face."
Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."
Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."
Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."

How many Gods are there?

Deuteronomy 6:4 "The Lord our God is one Lord."

vs.

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image."
Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil."
I John 5:7 "And there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
It does no good to claim that "Let us" is the magisterial "we." Such usage implies inclusivity of all authorities under a king's leadership. Invoking the Trinity solves nothing because such an idea is more contradictory than the problem it attempts to solve.

Are we all sinners?

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."
Psalm 14:3 "There is none that doeth good, no, not one."

vs.

Job 1:1 "There was a man . . . who name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright."
Genesis 7:1 "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."
Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

How old was Ahaziah?

II Kings 8:26 "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

vs.

II Chronicles 22:2 "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

Should we swear an oath?

Numbers 30:2 "If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath . . . he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth."
Genesis 21:22-24,31 " . . . swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me . . . And Abraham said, I will swear. . . . Wherefore he called that place Beersheba ["well of the oath"]; because there they sware both of them."
Hebrews 6:13-17 "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself . . . for men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath."
See also Genesis 22:15-19, Genesis 31:53, and Judges 11:30-39.

vs.

Matthew 5:34-37 "But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven . . . nor by the earth . . . . Neither shalt thou swear by thy head . . . . But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."
James 5:12 ". . . swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."

When was Jesus crucified?

Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour, and they crucified him."

vs.

John 19:14-15 "And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out . . . crucify him."
It is an ad hoc defense to claim that there are two methods of reckoning time here. It has never been shown that this is the case.

Shall we obey the law?

I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourself to every ordinance of man . . . to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors."
Matthew 22:21 "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's." See also Romans 13:1,7 and Titus 3:1.

vs.

Acts 5:29 "We ought to obey God rather then men."

How many animals on the ark?

Genesis 6:19 "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark."
Genesis 7:8-9 "Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah."
Genesis 7:15 "And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life."

vs.

Genesis 7:2 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female."

Were women and men created equal?

Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

vs.

Genesis 2:18,23 "And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. . . . And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

Were trees created before humans?

Genesis 1:12-31 "And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: . . . And the evening and the morning were the third day. . . . And God said, Let us make man in our image . . . And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

vs.

Genesis 2:5-9 "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. .Ê.ÊAnd the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground . . . And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food."

Did Michal have children?

II Samuel 6:23 "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death."

vs.

II Samuel 21:8 "But the king took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul."

How many stalls did Solomon have?

I Kings 4:26 "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."

vs.

II Chronicles 9:25 "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."

Did Paul's men hear a voice?

Acts 9:7 "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."

vs.

Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."
(For more detail on this contradiction, with a linguistic analysis of the Greek words, see "Did Paul's Men Hear A Voice?" by Dan Barker, published in the The Skeptical Review, 1994 #1)

Is God omnipotent?

Jeremiah 32:27 "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

vs.

Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

Does God live in light?

I Timothy 6:15-16 " . . . the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach . . ."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
John 12:35 "Then Jesus saith unto them, . . . he that walketh in darkness knoweth not wither he goeth."
Job 18:18 "He [the wicked] shall be driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world."
Daniel 2:22 "He [God] knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him." See also Psalm 143:3, II Corinthians 6:14, and Hebrews 12:18-22.

vs.

I Kings 8:12 "Then spake Solomon, The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness." (Repeated in II Chronicles 6:1)
II Samuel 22:12 "And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies."
Psalm 18:11 "He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies."
Psalm 97:1-2 "The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice . . . clouds and darkness are round about him."

Does God accept human sacrifice?

Deuteronomy 12:31 "Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods."

vs.

Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
Exodus 22:29 "For thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors; the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me."
Judges 11:30-39 "And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hand, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon . . . and the Lord delivered them into his hands. . . . And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: . . . And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed."
II Samuel 21:8-14 "But the king [David] took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal . . . and he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the Lord: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest . . . And after that God was intreated for the land."
Hebrews 10:10-12 " . . . we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ . . . But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God."
I Corinthians 5:7 " . . . For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."

Who was Joseph's father?

Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."

vs.

Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."
[/QUOTE][/QB][/QUOTE]

[ 08-15-2003, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Faceman: This is because the Bible is not "the book of all answers". Wisdom never gives you an easy answer just guidance. The issues you listed are controversial for good reasons and if you look for guidance in the Bible you'll find arguments pro and contra because they exist and because the Bible is NOT a single-minded rulebook like many blame it and many praise it to be. The Bible (especially the New Testament) tells us educational stories to get important points across to us in an easily understandable way. Now to the structural differences between Old and New Testament: The Old Testament is scripture of the official religion of the Hebrew people. Thus it supports the existing structures and e.g. advocates for capital punishment. The New Testament is the biography of something that started out as a cult and therefore disagreed with the existing social structures in many viewpoints while seamlessly integrating with the old writings. So it does not contradict but base itself on the Old Testament while having a different attitude towards society. When Jesus says: "This is my blood of the New Testament" he's reforming but not denying the Old Testament. !bad comparison coming up! Calling that a contradiction would be like saying: "The new Corvette contradicts the '89 Corvette because it has another engine" The new Corvette will only "contradict" the Old one once it has 5 reverse gears and only one for forward or if it needs to be pushed to generate gasoline (I just realized how funny that woudl be [img]smile.gif[/img] ) So basically what I'm trying to say is that the Bible is no rulebook. So seek advice and guidance but no easy answers! And that the New Testament is not a counterpart to the Old Testament but rather a reforming sequel.

If the Bible is percieved in a certain way, like you have illustrated Faceman, like Yorick has illustrated and like John D. is in the process of illustrating it can be fairly argued that the bible has "few" or "no" contradictions.

I still dont see it this way and I think I have outlined "enough" why. When it comes down to it, I can only restate my multi-faceted gem analogy. It boils down to a matter of perception for this soul. This answer is going to be unsatisfactory for certain camps in the discussion, who believe absolute truth discounts individual perception. I have no arguement for this other than absolute truth is a matter of perception.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Sorry Chewie I didn't know I'd open up this can of worms RL has got'n in the way, lots of jobs to get out and little time to do them [img]smile.gif[/img] or depends how you look at them I guess.

Tis no problem John, its an interesting can of worms to open that has led to some lively discussion. Please take note that I mostly held back my personal veiws on this topic until this thread and I have barely scratched the surface with regards to them. I did cut and paste that whole list as an example of the contradiction theory, so please dont take those as my own neccessarily.

To be honest I feel this topic may do more harm than good at the end of the day considering how deeply held people beleifs are with regards to religion. I can only hope my own veiws are not taken as disrespect toward Christianity or Islam, or any faith because if anything my questioning and thinking serves to hopefully understand better, both the good and bad, that comes from religion.

[ 08-15-2003, 02:43 AM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Faceman]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: This answer is going to be unsatisfactory for certain camps in the discussion, who believe absolute truth discounts individual perception. I have no arguement for this other than absolute truth is a matter of perception.

This answer is completely satisfactory for me. After all if there is an absolute truth it can never be fully perceived by man because as a human you can only believe but never know.
It all comes down to the famous "Scio Nescio"
The only thing we can know is that we are subject to errors and therefore know nothing.
So like every big issue the Bible too is a matter of perception as you state so correctly.

[ 08-15-2003, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: Faceman ]

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

I started to post this yesterday, and then the lights went out. Damn power grid!! Anyway....
originaly by: Faceman

David Copperfield CANNOT walk on water, he can only create the illusion he is.

So what makes you think that Jesus could either?? At least you can see David Copperfield do it.

originaly by: Faceman

The Bible says that god is all wise and after all that's our discussion topic.

If your only back up is the bible then you are in a lot of trouble. My livejournal says that I am all knowing and all powerfull. That doesnt make it true. I wanna see some burning bushes and some floods!! Where is the rain of toads and the plague of locusts?? It seems to me that god has come up real short in the proof department in the last 2000 years.


originaly by : Yorick

That's why we believe Jesus was FULLY God and FULLY human. Not half and half. God living as a human. "God with us" as Emmanuel means.

So I am just supposed to throw out the "All humans have 32 chromosomes" and replace that bit of scientific fact with a "Because god says so"??

As far as the adultery claim goes, for starters Mary was not married. Adultery is when a married person has sexual relations outside of marriage. So if anything it was premarital fornication. However there was no sex, she was made pregnant. Are women who are artificially inseminated considered to have had sex with the doctor that implants the sperm? Or even to have had sex with the man whose sperm it is? Having sex, and fertilising an ovary are two different things. Both can happen without the other.

I must have missed the part about the fertility clinic in the bible. Think about it logicaly for just 1 second. There has never been a single case of spontaneous pregnancy in the history of all humanity. Since the first monkey learned to walk up right all the way up untill the present time it has always taken a sperm cell and an egg cell to create a human. I just cant see how people can just disregard facts and replace them with a "God can do anything" sticker.

originaly by: Yorick

How is Van Goughs self portrait on canvass a human? It's a painting in the image of Van Gough. Heck you would look at it and say "it's Van Gough." But it doesn't make the person Vincent Van Gough, a canvass painting, nor his self portrait, a human.

The biggest problem with this analogy is that paintings dont walk and talk , but people do. If we are made in the image of god then shouldnt we be able to do the things that god does?? We can walk ,talk, feel, think,and create. Just like god does.

[*\Conan/*]

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/2347/f1.html

Yes, many contraditions exist. But... like a good movie or novel it must be divided and studied to the extreme. My views on this subject are confusing at times but my faith in God as a Savior, creator, teacher, and friend are solid. The Bible is like swimming imho. The further in you study and read, the deeper and deeper it gets. Soon you will not be able to touch bottom