Oh! The little devils are dead!

[Skunk]

In the news last night, there was an interview with an Arab BBC reporter who was life on the spot, and he said there were people shooting in the air with their AK 47's. NOTE... shooting in the air... NOT shooting at Americans.

I'm a bit confused here.
Most Iraqi's hated Saddam and Sons (and their dictatorship) with as much venom as they hate the US/UK army (and their occupation). So it's clear why they were celebrating.

But I have no idea why anyone else is celebrating. All that has been achieved in this mindless act of violence was:
1. The turning of two sadists that were universally hated into Martyrs.
2. The end of any chance of closure for the families of the victims - where they could see justice being done in an *Iraqi* court of law
3. The death of an innocent 14 year old child whose 'crime' was to have the wrong father and grandfather...

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Skunk: But I have no idea why anyone else is celebrating.

Perhaps some people confuse the war in Iraq with reality tv or a sports event.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: No matter how much you don't like someone, it pays not to celebrate their death. Celebrate the freedom their death brings, sure, but showing joy human death itself betrays a certain... ugliness of character so to speak. Sets a bad precedent, that sort of thing... Food for thought.

I celebrated when Jon Irenicus died. I'm glad they were killed. I'm even sort of glad they didn't get a trial -- the last thing the world needs is terrorist actions demanding their release. I agree that the administration and the world and the Iraqis would have benefitted most from a trial, but I also think we all nevertheless benefitted a lot from their deaths. I do not value their lives. None at all. Not for anything. They are shinning examples of the fatal flaw in the "all life is valuable" argument. Some life is not. I hope they suffered as much as possible -- hopefully it was some small percentage of what each Iraqi Olympic athlete suffered.

If this betrays an ugliness of character, then color me ugly. I'm fine with having a few flaws. Reminds me I'm human... erm, I mean, reminds me I'm a muppet.

[ 07-23-2003, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[johnny]

Originally posted by Grojlach: quote: Originally posted by Skunk: But I have no idea why anyone else is celebrating.

Perhaps some people confuse the war in Iraq with reality tv or a sports event. [/QUOTE]No oh ever so subtle Bob. I'm just kinda glad to see that this man can no longer do what he has been doing for too many years. I know it's the "far from my bed" show, but it does something to me nonetheless.

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Skunk: quote: In the news last night, there was an interview with an Arab BBC reporter who was life on the spot, and he said there were people shooting in the air with their AK 47's. NOTE... shooting in the air... NOT shooting at Americans.

I'm a bit confused here.
Most Iraqi's hated Saddam and Sons (and their dictatorship) with as much venom as they hate the US/UK army (and their occupation). So it's clear why they were celebrating.

But I have no idea why anyone else is celebrating. All that has been achieved in this mindless act of violence was:
1. The turning of two sadists that were universally hated into Martyrs.
2. The end of any chance of closure for the families of the victims - where they could see justice being done in an *Iraqi* court of law
3. The death of an innocent 14 year old child whose 'crime' was to have the wrong father and grandfather... [/QUOTE]I don't think they'll be martyrs to the vast majority of Iraqi citizens. They killed and tortured way to many people for that. Most every family was affected.

If that 14 or however old grandson of Saddom was shooting at the Troopers of the 101st, then he is no innocent and deserved what he got!

And as for a Wild West Show, from what I've heard on the news, once the people in the house saw they were surrounded, THEY were the ones that started shooting. I was told here at work that when the Americans stormed the house after 4 or 5 hours of shooting there was still someone firing back at them. I'll try to find out his source and post it here. He is a newshound, so I've no doubt he read it.

My personal feelings are that I'd rather see Saddom captured and some mob get a hold of him and then do a Benito (As in Mussolini. In case you don't know, he was beaten, shot and his body along with his mistress was strung up on a lamp post.) on him. What happened to his sons was justice. They had their chance and they blew it. As it stands now, the Iraqi people KNOW for certain there can NEVER be another Hussian now. There is no heir left.

[ 07-23-2003, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Sir Taliesin ]

[johnny]

Well, they better capture him then, before he starts making women pregnant again.

[Sir Taliesin]

Even if he does get a bunch of women preggers now, by the time those kids grow up, there will not be any support for them. We'll have written the history so that the name Hussien will be senomous ( I NEED A SPELL CHECKER!!!) with Hitler. Ever wonder what happened to all of Hitler's kin. They didn't all just walk off the face of the plant. But you never hear about them.

BTW, after having retired to the reading room here at work (The far Stall in the Mens Room), I have come to the understanding that Saddom has yet a third younger son who has stayed out of the limelight. Let's hope he continues too.

[Skunk]

I don't think they'll be martyrs to the vast majority of Iraqi citizens. They killed and tortured way to many people for that. Most every family was affected.

I couldn't agree with you more - BUT, outside Iraq, their reputations just went up.

"They refused to surrender to the aggressors and died bravely defending their land - a lesson to us all"

will be the rallying cry - and their crimes will be forgotten or written off as
"Dirty American lies and propaganda."

Had they appeared before an Iraqi judge and an Iraqi jury and were tried on the basis of the testimonies of the Iraqi witnesses to their crimes - such statements would be impossible to maintain.

And as for a Wild West Show, from what I've heard on the news, once the people in the house saw they were surrounded, THEY were the ones that started shooting. I was told here at work that when the Americans stormed the house after 4 or 5 hours of shooting there was still someone firing back at them.

I'm not one for emotive phrases like 'Wild West Show' either. That said, it was *clear* they were surrounded and unable to leave - so why the hurry to get the 'kill'? Eventually their ammunition, water and food supplies would have run out.

Surely the US army had nice things like CS gas and other non-lethal stuff to throw at them? Instead they used anti-tank missiles - which leads me on to my next point...

As it stands now, the Iraqi people KNOW for certain there can NEVER be another Hussian now.

Are they certain? News crews went around the streets of Bagdad again today and the same statement was constantly repeated:
"I'll believe it when I see the bodies"
Troule is, the bodies are burned beyond recognition and the US is now asking the Iraqi's to take them at their word, and frankly a US diplomat with his hand on his heart saying "honestly, it's true" carries very little weight in the middle east especially in Iraq. That, combined with the fact that the Hussein family has an almost mythical reputation for survival amongst the Iraqis (they've all survived multiple assassination attempts) means that few Iraqis will stop looking over their shoulder when the US says that the "medical records match" - yeah, right...

And it won't stop the growing resistence movement either - it might even inflame it further. Saddam and Co were certainly popular amongst the Suni minority and news of the jnrs deaths will either be discounted or, if believed, be used to stir up a rallying cry for revenge. But the Suni's are not the only ones with an axe to grind against the US.

The Shi'ite majority bear an equal distrust and dislike for the country that so badly betrayed them and, even now, is refusing to hand over power to them. When the US encouraged the Shi'ites to rise up against Saddam with promises of military support and then abandoned them to the slaughter, tens of thousands of their fighters fled into neighbouring Iran for asylum. With Saddam gone, many have come back (and many more are on the way), with the memory of their murdered families and fallen comrades still fresh in their minds - and they blame the US and Saddam equally for their suffering.

So sure, they will be rejoicing at the deaths of Saddam jnrs - but it won't stop their (almost daily) attacks on US troops either.

[Timber Loftis]

More normal and oft-repeated propoganda, Skunk. As the US forces were LEAVING in 1991, President Bush announced peace had been reached, but stated he hoped, for their own good, the people of Iraq would rise up. Just because the liberal media repeats its spin on the facts 120000 times in 12 years in an attempt to brainwash us, it does not mean we have to let them.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: I celebrated when Jon Irenicus died. I'm glad they were killed. I'm even sort of glad they didn't get a trial -- the last thing the world needs is terrorist actions demanding their release. I agree that the administration and the world and the Iraqis would have benefitted most from a trial, but I also think we all nevertheless benefitted a lot from their deaths. I do not value their lives. None at all. Not for anything. They are shinning examples of the fatal flaw in the "all life is valuable" argument. Some life is not. I hope they suffered as much as possible -- hopefully it was some small percentage of what each Iraqi Olympic athlete suffered. If this betrays an ugliness of character, then color me ugly. I'm fine with having a few flaws. Reminds me I'm human... erm, I mean, reminds me I'm a muppet.

I celebrated that I got my soul back, but I was pretty saddened that Irenicus' talents had to come to such a wasteful end...

alright then... just remember that no one stays top of the hierarchy forever. There is always someone, somewhere, planning, training and fighting hard to take your place. And when they do, you can be sure that all of your mercy, as well as your cruelty, will be remembered.

They're dead, fine, whatever. Move on, start re-building. No need to run around patting yourselves on the back. Especially when all YOU did was watch news bulletins on a tv screen.

[ 07-23-2003, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]