R.A. Salvatore is the man!!!!!!!

[Jerr Conner]

Technically, they both won.

Drizzt won first by deswording Entreri, then Entreri won when he released the Psionics he was given, though he hated that he won that way.

It makes sense though, that Jarlaxle would have Drizzt raised. He loves chaos himself, and Drizzt causes plenty of it against evil-doers.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Jerr Conner: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Luvian: That's why we consider him too zealot. He don't want to kill drows? Come on! Their whole society is based on killing drows, it's their ways of life. They are brainwashed in doing so since birth! His father is an assasin and his mother is a priestess of loth... How can he care so much about not killing? He's always like that, acting like a phylosopher and a pacifist, only killing as a last resort and feeling bad for it. Does he ever get mad at people? Does he ever curse, have bad thought about people?

That's not zealotry, it's racism. And as I mentioned, he came to that realization, and decided he minus will kill drow if they're threatening people.

Yes he did get mad at people.

He got mad at Artemis Entreri for the things he did to Regis, as well as his treatment of Catti-Brie.

He may not have actual bad thoughts about people, but he get's close to it. Look at how he views the Carnival (I can't remember the full name, but it's a show where people are tortured for the peasents entertainment).
.
--(I cut some parts off so this post don't end up taking half the page)-- Luvian

As Memnoch once said somewhere, those are "feelgood" novels. There's nothing really wrong with those, but to me it feel a lot better when the good guys finally win if they lost a lot and frustrated me first. Winnng doesn't feel like an achievement if all they did is win. It's like a multimilionaire winning the lottery... Wow! I'd be so excited for him... What's even better is when I can't tell who are the good guys and who are the bad guys, just like in real life...

True, those are good books as well, but RA Salvatore has written some of it into the novels. Morik the Rogue, for instance, can't be considered a good or bad guy. Neither can Jarlaxle. Even Entreri, in The Silent Blade, wasn't quite a bad guy until the end.

As far as suspense, I'm reading the Paths of Darkness Collector's Edition, and I kept worrying that he'd kill off Regis (My favorite character) in the first book alone, and after reading a summary of The Lone Drow on Amazon, I'm worried he may still kill off Regis, and some of the other characters.

And as I've mentioned before, would not a Paladin havve just killed off Entreri to begin with? </font>[/QUOTE]There's no point discussing this if if you can't see it. You are like me back then, I didn't see those problems at first either. Maybe one day you will see those weakness too, or maybe not, it's not important.

[ 03-01-2004, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

[Jerr Conner]

That argument can be used both ways. Maybe you're refusing to see my side cause you're set in your opinion?

I grabbed the definitions of Zealotry and Racism:

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

zeal·ot·ry ( P ) Pronunciation Key (zl-tr)
n.
Excessive zeal; fanaticism.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Jerr Conner: That argument can be used both ways. Maybe you're refusing to see my side cause you're set in your opinion? I grabbed the definitions of Zealotry and Racism: rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm) n. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. Discrimination or prejudice based on race. zeal·ot·ry ( P ) Pronunciation Key (zl-tr) n. Excessive zeal; fanaticism.

I don't really think of im as a zealot, I only used that word because it was said already and was close to what I meant.

He's not fanatic, he's just too much of a goodie two shoes to be realistic, considering what he is, went through and what he is living.

[Jerr Conner]

I don't really think he's a goodie two shoes. For one, he's more than willing to kill Giants, even if they didn't attack first. He even hunts them. Sure, he says he's ridding Faerun of a menace, but he's mostly going to have an adventure.

Here's what I found online about Chaotic Good alignments:

Chaotic Good
Chaotic Good people combine the free spirit of their Chaotic natures, with benevolence of Good. They don’t much care for what others think of them, and will act on their own. However, they will stand up for what is right, and will oppose Evil, in their own way. They are unlikely to join any crusade against Evil, but will act independently, such as guerrilla attacks against enemy troops and supplies. Or Adventuring.

When dealing with others, Chaotic Good people prefer to keep their morality to themselves, and expect others to do the same. They join adventuring companies to broaden their horizons and see the world. If they get to whip some evil butt along the way, so much the better. They will work with the party as long as they are given room to express their own ideas and feel that they have a say.

Elves are the most common Chaotic Good race.


The basic rules of Chaotic Good are:

1) The only constant in life is change.

2) The rights of the individual trump the rights of society.

3) The heart rules the mind.

4) Support, aid, and protect non-Evil creatures.

5) Defeat and destroy Evil

I think the only part that almost doesn't fit Drizzt is the keeping one's morals to himself. On occassion, he has Moralized to Entreri.

However, Drizzt is also of the moral that there should be no discrimination. However, whenever he tried to enter a city, and was denied, he just stoically accepted it, without mouthing off about how wrong it was.

His letters are also inward moralizing, so he still fits the mold of a CG Character.

As far as what he went through, well there are people in our world who have gone through their shares of bad families and trauma themselves, and they too still remain good people. They, much like Drizzt, just took a different path than the person who would become angry with the world.

Also, I'm enjoying the discussion.

[ 03-02-2004, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Jerr Conner ]

[Morgeruat]

Most of the people who emerge from bad families weren't raised in a society where that was the only way of life, and they go through ALOT of therapy before they are able to function in society, that or the begin to revert to the ways they despised so much becuase it's the only way they know.

Morick, I might consider neutral, as he is reasonably loyal to Wulfgar (once his life is threatened if he doesn't) But Artemis and Jarlaxle are evil, while they aren't chaotic evil like most drow (IIRC they're both lawful evil), their actions and the lifestyle they've chosen/been thrust into determines their alignment, Artemis is a survivor, he wants to be the best, and he stopped at nothing (except his own twisted code of honor) to get there, Jarlaxle worked better as a shadowy puppet master, the same role he played in most of the Drizzt books prior to the silent blade, and he is not above eliminating those who show the slightest failure, the fact that he's fairly loyal to his leutenants/Artemis just shows that he's not paranoid, not that he's really a good guy that's just slightly misunderstood.

[Jerr Conner]

I still wouldn't think of either as totally evil.

Besides, it's not impossible for Drizzt to become who he did. He did have Zaknafien, and Zaknafien had to have been very questioning in his youth.

[Morgeruat]

Zak was chaotic Neutral, (per the Villains Lorebook AD&D 2nd edition (where Jarlaxle and Artemis show up) He didn't like his race or what they did, but he didn't feel strongly enough about it to leave (or he feared doing so)

Reread the beginning of (IIRC) silent blade, the part where Jarlaxle orders his leiutenents to psionic/delayed blast fireball/chop up a random person(I forget if the person had any importance or if he was truly a random victim) and then kick them out into a crowded city street, when the psionic power ended the person exploded into a mass of jellied flesh, and then the fireball went off taking out many innocent bystanders, how can you try to justify that he's not totally evil, because he made friends with an evil ASSASSIN, Artemis makes his living by killing for money, and he's the best there is at what he does (I don't count Drizzt or Danica because they don't kill for $$), regardless of what he may be like as "a person" he's evil, doesn't care about the harm he does or the widows he leaves behind, he does his job and continues without a second thought, his fears and doubts from the books that feature him prominently are a selfish paranoia, that one day soon he won't be the best and he'll learn it when the dagger slides out of his back.

[Timber Loftis]

Tsk, tsk, I think we're generating waaaay more philosophical and ethical debate than any Salvatore book is worth.

Let's just discuss a little reality -- even on the fantastical level. Doesn't Drizzt put six coins on the back of each hand and throw them up in the air, only to catch all 12 coins? Or was it more? Doesn't Drizzt parry all 5 of Jarlaxle's magic daggers while simultaneously fighting leiutenants and/or Yochlol? Oh, wait, here's a good one -- Drizzt's blind Ranger mentor shooting things with the help of his pet owl; almost as classically cheesy as Johnny Depp in Once Upon a Time in Mexico. Wait, the coolest -- when Guenhwyvar was about to fall in the pool of acid and Drizzt saved it by catching it on his booted foot.

After the coolness of the "back to back" fighting idea wore off, I began to suspect Salvatore's grasp of "physical reality" in his work. Forget ethics and morals -- let's just try to get past basic laws of physics like gravity.

[ 03-02-2004, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Jerr Conner]

Reread the beginning of (IIRC) silent blade, the part where Jarlaxle orders his leiutenents to psionic/delayed blast fireball/chop up a random person(I forget if the person had any importance or if he was truly a random victim) and then kick them out into a crowded city street, when the psionic power ended the person exploded into a mass of jellied flesh, and then the fireball went off taking out many innocent bystanders, how can you try to justify that he's not totally evil, because he made friends with an evil ASSASSIN, Artemis makes his living by killing for money, and he's the best there is at what he does (I don't count Drizzt or Danica because they don't kill for $$), regardless of what he may be like as "a person" he's evil, doesn't care about the harm he does or the widows he leaves behind, he does his job and continues without a second thought, his fears and doubts from the books that feature him prominently are a selfish paranoia, that one day soon he won't be the best and he'll learn it when the dagger slides out of his back.

I'll reread, but could you kindly provide the chapter?

Let's just discuss a little reality -- even on the fantastical level. Doesn't Drizzt put six coins on the back of each hand and throw them up in the air, only to catch all 12 coins? Or was it more? Doesn't Drizzt parry all 5 of Jarlaxle's magic daggers while simultaneously fighting leiutenants and/or Yochlol? Oh, wait, here's a good one -- Drizzt's blind Ranger mentor shooting things with the help of his pet owl; almost as classically cheesy as Johnny Depp in Once Upon a Time in Mexico. Wait, the coolest -- when Guenhwyvar was about to fall in the pool of acid and Drizzt saved it by catching it on his booted foot.

I was under the impression that elves are faster than humans, so I assumed that Drizzt, being faster than even a normal elf, would be able to catch that many coins. I mean, there's really no scientific way of proving this, as there's no elves, so we'd have to suspend our disbelief (Which we do for most Fantasy Novels anyway).

I don't think Drizzt actually fought a Yochlol, at least I haven't seen him do as such as far as I've read (I'm up to Spine of the World). Also, I can imagine him dodging blows as he parries Jarlaxle's daggers.