Labor Day speech and unemployment...

[SpiritWarrior]

Yeah, i've heard similiar stories. A friend of mine got tazed repeatedly while witnessess insist he was not resisting but instead, simply mouthing off while drunk. Apparently they went over the limit of legal tazing allowed. But when you file a complaint nothing gets done. And many lawyers take you to the side and say "It's a cop, you ain't gonna win".

They need to open that process wide up, the way doctors are super-liable for malpractice. It seems a cop only gets in trouble when someone posts a video of it on Youtube. Even then, they are usually just suspended. Sometimes they lose their jobs. Rarely do they even seem to get charged.

[Azred]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior Not sure what you mean by people having no recourse against the military. Sue 'em, that's what everyone else does. No organization is too big, from Microsoft to the Catholic Church. They're all dragged to court. Or do you mean something else by this? I'm with you mostly on the torture stuff. And yes, I agree people would sell out anyone if it meant ending such misery. I would. Even if it didn't, and torture was a 100% successful and fully accepted pursuit and practice...it's still barbaric. Could you imagine if a family member of yours was falsely accused of something serious - framed even - and the FBI got a hold of that person and tortured them mercilessly just because they can? Physically and psychologically abused into confessing to something they didn't do. Deny it and the abuse will keep coming. Confess and you will be sentenced. I mean what kind of country would you live in when people are afraid of denying false charges against them?

The military could always claim "classified" or "national security" to avoid lawsuits.

I didn't say I agreed with torture; in fact, my position that it is useless means that I do not support it because it serves only to waste time...erm, unless you are into that sort of thing.

What kind of country would we live in where we are afraid of denying false charges against us? I suspect that if we don't get our government under control we are going to find out.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Azred The military could always claim "classified" or "national security" to avoid lawsuits. I didn't say I agreed with torture; in fact, my position that it is useless means that I do not support it because it serves only to waste time...erm, unless you are into that sort of thing. What kind of country would we live in where we are afraid of denying false charges against us? I suspect that if we don't get our government under control we are going to find out.

I know you disagree with it.. I read your response there about how you opposed it and said that I agree with ya. I was just giving my thoughts on why I also oppose it.

As for the military screaming security issues, it does happen alot. But, if there was a big enough clamor, they too would be ordered to open up. Classified only works for so long, as we have seen in many high court cases. But yes, it is their first defense to deter any whistleblowers, absolutely. This needs to be flayed open.

[robertthebard]

Originally Posted by Timber Loftis They are. In the olden days it was obvious, but now the police have to be a little bit subtle. Having an "in" in the form of someone who sees it everyday, I can tell you straight out that the old regular beatings have been replaced by defendants accidentally hitting their heads on concrete walls or floors. It's still the same old same old.

I had a deuputy sherriff try to have me have an accident during a move to the hole after a fight in the county jail here years back. He was surprisingly polite a few weeks later, when he came back to work, and had healed up from the assbeatin' he received for his trouble. Some people should probably take note that when it takes 6 people to pull a guy off another guy in a fight, it's probably not a good idea to try to 1 vs 1 them later. He probably could have pressed charges, if the two guards that separated us hadn't seen what happened, and refused to cover for him. Not like I would have cared, mind you, I was already on my way to prison, and taking an aggravated battery of a police officer in with you means people will leave you alone.

In the years that I was a social misfit, I've seen, and been subjected to more than one case of police that think they can't be wrong when dealing with suspects. Hell, I was charged with loitering and failure to obey police order while riding a moped past a high school. If the cop had been thinking, instead of remembering the day he chased me for 3 hours w/out catching/finding me, he could have gotten me for no license and no protective gear. I was under 18 at the time, and KS state law required I wear a helmet, I wasn't. Instead, I got carted off to Juvey, and then released when my mom stated that I had been home all day, I had been, and had only gone to the school to pick a friend up so he could help us with some home construction we were doing.

What this has to do with the current state of the economy and unemployment is beyond me, but it is what it is. I am curious, however, how the war in the Middle East has contributed to the current unemployment levels. I'd google it, but I'm quite sure I'd find that it indeed doesn't. I am sure, however, that ordering repairs/construction of our highway system would indeed create jobs. I am also sure that stricter enforcement of our immigration laws would lead to more Americans with jobs. I am also sure that some people are going to jump on that with both feet, stating that picking fruit and lawn care are jobs that are beneath American citizens. Seems to me I've seen that arguement before.

Blaming the past administration, especially when you(generic you) didn't agree with them is easy. However, at some point, it falls on the incumbent to do something. Come on, he's already gotten a Nobel Peace Prize, isn't it time he earned it?

[SpiritWarrior]

When you get a Nobel Peace prize because the planet is happy you are not George Bush, it speaks volumes. As for proving his worth in 2 years - he owned Osama and saved us from a great depression. The end. Just because people don't like it doesn't mean it ain't true. It just means they don't like it.

But I yawn. This is all recycled stuff, I've said it here before more than once, same old arguments keep coming up, yet nobody cares to research or find out otherwise and the cycle continues. Or at the very least make up some new talking points. That or tell us more about your time as a miscreant - now THAT is interesting.

[robertthebard]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior When you get a Nobel Peace prize because the planet is happy you are not George Bush, it speaks volumes. As for proving his worth in 2 years - he owned Osama and saved us from a great depression. The end. Just because people don't like it doesn't mean it ain't true. It just means they don't like it. But I yawn. This is all recycled stuff, I've said it here before more than once, same old arguments keep coming up, yet nobody cares to research or find out otherwise and the cycle continues. Or at the very least make up some new talking points. That or tell us more about your time as a miscreant - now THAT is interesting.

Wouldn't ending the recession mean there were more jobs, instead of less jobs? My understanding is that a recession means people aren't buying things. Unemployed people aren't buying things. Hence the recession isn't ended, and if unemployment keeps going, it's going to get worse long before it gets better.

He owned Osama based on the footwork laid out by the previous administration, however, he does get the nod since he was in power at the time. Why then, is it logical, to not blame him when things are spiralling downwards, instead of praising him? After all, if he gets credit for the good, he should get the blame for the bad, where it can be laid at his feet, anyway.

I did, however, live in interesting times as a youth. In retrosopect, I wouldn't change anything. Good times, bad times, all shaped the man I am.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by robertthebard Wouldn't ending the recession mean there were more jobs, instead of less jobs? My understanding is that a recession means people aren't buying things. Unemployed people aren't buying things. Hence the recession isn't ended, and if unemployment keeps going, it's going to get worse long before it gets better. He owned Osama based on the footwork laid out by the previous administration, however, he does get the nod since he was in power at the time. Why then, is it logical, to not blame him when things are spiralling downwards, instead of praising him? After all, if he gets credit for the good, he should get the blame for the bad, where it can be laid at his feet, anyway. I did, however, live in interesting times as a youth. In retrosopect, I wouldn't change anything. Good times, bad times, all shaped the man I am.

This has also been said before more than once, I need to just maybe locate a handful of these threads and paste them as people forget the answers a few months later.

BTW I want to both note and remind you that I said he saved us from a Great Depression and you started talking about Recession - two different things.

But regardless, the recession ended in June of 2009. Which, if I was to take you up on your offer to place blame and credit, he also ended the recession atop catching Osama and averting a great depression. Sounds like a win, no?

I thought you were gonna tell us stories about your wildman days.

[Azred]

hrm...getting an award for not doing something (or not being someone) is tantamount to receiving an A just for showing up in class and not doing any work. In short, it isn't an award about which I would feel proud.

You mean the stimulus that averted worse disaster than we have now? The stimulus that began under the previous administration? The stimulus packages of which neither President was a central player?

The recession did not end in 2009--unemployment is still relatively high, interest rates are artificially low, etc.

Yes--Osama bin Laden met his death at the hands of the Obama Administration. So...you support this particular state-sanctioned assassination?

*laugh* I'm just having some fun with spin. Obama's Campaign promised much but his Administration has delivered very little. In part this isn't his fault--anyone who got elected in 2008 was going to get the short end of the stick and have a miserable mess to deal with. I don't envy the person who will win the election next year, either.

[Felix The Assassin]

Well played Azred!

BHO did promise change: Granted, he took office with a declining economy. What did he do? Put it in a nose dive, broke the bank, raised the debt ceiling and lowered the overall credit rating of the nation. Change? Check.

BHO promised universal health care. We got a so-so health care that has many states broke paying the bills and no money to pay for natural disaster relief, or in California's case, is writing IOUs. Not only is the nation broke, but the individual states are broke as well. Change? Check.

BHO promised to end the wars. He made an official pull out date and reduced the amount of troops on the ground in Iraq. What you don't hear is that 50K troop withdrawal shifted out of Iraq and relocated in Kuwait. He also made an announcement of the draw-down in Afghanistan, what happened was a troop surge. Then he took it upon himself to make his own war, so to speak, and authorized direct combat and combat support operations against Libya, thereby increasing the nations war efforts and decreasing war stock supplies all the while depleting more from the coffers. Change? Check.

BHO has promised us a budget reduction, but Congress does not agree with it. Instead of handling business, BHO takes the spotlight and becomes the biggest media whore of a president ever, by publicly ridiculing Congress and their actions. Change? Check.

The polls shift after every speech, and BHO makes a new speech to shift the polls. More speeches in two years than any other POTUS. Change? Check.

So all in all, we have had change. And that change was in fact administered by BHO. Thou there are many who blame W. BHO IS at the helm, and the change is his!

[SpiritWarrior]

Oh, and I forgot to add September 11th under the watchful eye of Bush.