Chain Events for everyone

[manikus]

I think at the moment there is confusion about the confusion.

I never used chain events in FRUA, so I didn't know what to expect. An explanation like the one I proposed would have helped me.

I also understand the point Olivier is making, but this is true for all chains, whether they use the Chain event or not. That seems like something that needs to go into the documentation.

[olivier_leroux]

Originally Posted by manikus I also understand the point Olivier is making, but this is true for all chains, whether they use the Chain event or not. That seems like something that needs to go into the documentation.

Ah, ok. It's especially tricky with Chain event chains though if you don't watch out.

Anyway, I think the slight ease you get from event conditions adopted automatically to the next event comes at a very high price because the way it is now, even though you don't have to set each and every condition manually, you always have to keep an eye out for them - regardless if you're doing a complicated chain with lots of different event conditions or just a very simple one. You can document it all you want, I still predict this being a major source for future bugs in design because the designer did not pay enough attention for a moment.

Regarding the explanatory text for the Chain event, you have my blessings though.

[JonnieR]

Chain events were widely used in FRUA.

BTW I think you are still confused about what I said actually worked. The chain event was set to "If event doesn't happen", the text events that the chain led to had "always" selected. This gets back to what Oliver pointed out; you have to be diligent in changing the next event after a chain (unless its another chain) to "always" because the editor just retains the last selection.

Also, if you do not carefully document your chain events and the logic flow you can get into big trouble with your mod. The classic case of the endless chain statement occurs in the Pool of Radiance where all the quests were given out by one person, the Phlan clerk. And later in the game you can be running quests in parallel. My heads hurts thinking about it.

[manikus]

I think that regardless of whichever we do any particular thing, there will be at least one designer that will not read the help and complain that there is a bug, long and loud. That doesn't mean I don't like the idea or suggestion, it's just what happens.

I guess it really comes down to whether a person reads any documentation before they start doing stuff with DC. I imagine a lot of FRUA users won't. So we probably should do it the FRUA way.

[olivier_leroux]

Originally Posted by manikus I think that regardless of whichever we do any particular thing, there will be at least one designer that will not read the help and complain that there is a bug, long and loud.

That might be true - and I confess that I'm probably one of these guys who'll prefer trial and error over reading instructions - but I still think the way I suggested is more intuitive and less likely to cause trouble. Okay, I'm a long time UA designer which means I have my preferences but it also means I've got some experience with complicated event chains, and really, I can't imagine a lot of cases where the present method of adopting conditions would be very useful. In my opinion it adds to the complexity of handling event chains rather than simplifying it.

It's a difference if something doesn't work because the designer forgot to set a required condition or because the designer forgot to UNDO a condition that's NOT required.

[manikus]

Olivier, I don't mind the people who don't read the documentation who are then going to figure it out by trial and error. I get bothered by the people that don't read the documentation and then post they've found a bug, and when we help them, ignore everything we've said because "it's a bug in the code". And then start writing inflammatory posts and sending the same via email to developers. This has happened four times since I've come on board. Twice with this forum being involved. But, thank the powers, those people have left. Honestly, I could never figure out why they stuck around passed that first day anyway. So, I tend to be a bit defensive about this.

Further down in the post you quoted, I did mention that we should do it the FRUA way, since that is what we want to emulate. And FRUA always defaults to 'always'.

I don't count this as a high priority bug, so it probably won't be fixed in the next release, but it will definitely be fixed for version 1.0.

[olivier_leroux]

Thanks for your patience, and please tell me if I'm becoming one of "these" people one day.

I don't mean to get on anyone's nerves, I was just hoping to make other people see why I think the UA way is also the more comfortable way and not just an arbitrary choice. If it's going to be implemented in 1.0, I don't want you to tell people "we only did that because some nostalgic UA folks asked for it" but because you too think it's logical and makes sense.

[manikus]

Olivier, you are exactly the kind of person I like. You ask questions, give answers, share opinions and are aware that other people may differ with you, but remain collegial.

But, as for agreeing with logic, good luck with that one. Recognizing logic is not always something I strive for.

And one last little thing- I think my saying, or anyone else saying "We do it this way because a FRUA user asked us to", might hold a little sway over what a non-FRUA user asks (considering the nature of this project and that you're asking us to make it more like FRUA), but what definitely holds the most sway is when we can say, "We do it this way because an active member of the community/user of DC asked us to."

[olivier_leroux]

Originally Posted by manikus what definitely holds the most sway is when we can say, "We do it this way because an active member of the community/user of DC asked us to."

Understood. Less talking, more commitment. I'm off to work on a DC mod then to earn some more authority.

[manikus]

Originally Posted by olivier_leroux Understood. Less talking, more commitment. I'm off to work on a DC mod then to earn some more authority.

Not exactly what I meant, but don't let me stop you from doing anything DC-related.