PETA-Freaks attack Rumsfeld....

[Sir Kenyth]

Here's a euphamism for ya. Most fruits and vegetables are, anatmically speaking, OVARIES! So make sure and get your proper servings of ovaries taday like the food pyramid says.

[Timber Loftis]

Yes, fruit is, by definition, a ripened ovary. Which is why a tomato is a fruit. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Kakero]

Is that so? my mum always complain I don't eat too much fruits. now I know what to tell her back. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[wellard]

And what is wrong with someone sticking up for animals. Trying to keep the bar of acceptable standards regarding the treatment of animals as high as possible is a good thing surely?

No I am NOT suggesting humans should put themselves foreword in the line of danger before animals IF it is necessary. But by keeping the pressure on, that the use of dolphins to locate mines, is not something to permanently accept. It should be a stepping-stone until a mechanical device is available. Lets hope that they are working on one right now.

PS has anyone heard from Turbovee?

PPS I'm stunned by your attitude Timber, at first read I thought you might be fishing for a type of answer, but a reread has left me sad

[Timber Loftis]

There's nothing wrong with sticking up for animals, Wellard, and I don't think there is. But, PETA-Freaks switch their brains off when doing so. What about the guy they attacked for putting a wounded bird out of its misery? What about that mink farm they invaded where they freed all the minks only to have fully half of them kill each other on the way out and the other half released into an environment where they are an invasive species?? They give a good cause a bad name.

I don't think it's wrong to eat animals - it is our place in the food chain. And, what you consume (i.e. put into your body) is as personal a choice as who you sleep with - so I don't question those choices (except on the theoretical level) just like I don't question choices on religion (except on the theoretical level). My vegetarianism comes from a loathing of animal cruelty and food safety issues in FACTORY farming (note: the MAJOR source of our food).

I do not think it is wrong to ride a horse, either. Nor teach a dog to hunt (though some owners are cruel to their hunting dogs and that's a different situation). Similarly, I do not see it as wrong to teach Dolphins to help in this way. Now, I don't have statistics on dolphin-deaths-by-mines, and I can't speak completely to this issue without that information. But, I would bet these dolphins live in the lap of luxury. Dolphins don't cooperate very well when they aren't treated very well - they are simply too aware of their circumstances.

And, is a machine better? If the dolphin is treated as a partner and friend and treated well by its (I hate this word with animals) *owner*, then isn't it the best symbiosis? I mean we're talking cooperation here, not death-by-longlines. I know that my Ranger D&D PC would never give up his wolf for a mechanical contraption.

TL, just a comment about Military Dolphins. It takes years to train them and thousands or tens of thousands to keep them healthy and well fed. That being the case, the military is as careful with them as they are with their Fighter Pilots and other valuable human resources.

There are not a lot of dolphin casualties since they don't possess any of the characteristics that anti-ship mines sense to cause them to explode. Naval Mines are triggerd in several ways, magnetic field disturbances, pressure waves or direct contact...Dolphins don't create pressure waves the way ships do, they do not have a magnetic signature (being organic) found in ships and don't need to touch the mine to locate them since their sonars are so acute. Contrary to what people see in certain hollywood movies, dolphins aren't sent out as crack suicide squads bearing bombs on their back to self destruct. That kind of insanity is reserved for the fanatical two legged types.

There is however a real effort being made to develop mechanical means for doing this job...not just out of humane concerns but out of cost concerns...dolphins are expensive to keep.

[wellard]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: There's nothing wrong with sticking up for animals, Wellard, and I don't think there is. But, PETA-Freaks switch their brains off when doing so. What about the guy they attacked for putting a wounded bird out of its misery? What about that mink farm they invaded where they freed all the minks only to have fully half of them kill each other on the way out and the other half released into an environment where they are an invasive species?? They give a good cause a bad name. Now, I don't have statistics on dolphin-deaths-by-mines, and I can't speak completely to this issue without that information. But, I would bet these dolphins live in the lap of luxury. Dolphins don't cooperate very well when they aren't treated very well - they are simply too aware of their circumstances. And, is a machine better? If the dolphin is treated as a partner and friend and treated well by its (I hate this word with animals) *owner*, then isn't it the best symbiosis? I mean we're talking cooperation here, not death-by-longlines.

They do look like two very bad examples Timber. Thank goodness that the mink episode did not happen in Australia. *Shudders* and I've been a member of an injured wildlife rescue outfit for a while and seemed to spend half the time putting down injured animals. So I am with you all the way on these two issues. No doubt if we trawl through the list of "actions" by PETA we will find more examples that are a result of hearts leading heads. But to start the thread with PETA freaks.... is surely leading the jury and to hang a whole organization from the result of some actions by its members is a bit unfair IMO.

Not forgetting as a leader on this board, on animal and environmental issues, people who respect your views as the most informed will have read this "PETA freaks" thread and may come to the conclusion that all PETA actions are crazy *"Why even Timber thinks so"* I know you can't and should not be held responsible for what others make of your views, but maybe it is worth keeping in mind [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Next issue [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

I'm quite sure that the dolphins are treated better than anywhere else in the world where they are working for humans. Also, as I have not heard otherwise, I am prepared to accept that there has been no known dolphin deaths regarding US minesweeping. However this does not mean that putting their lives in danger when there might well be a better mechanical alternate is acceptable. It is a cause to keep our eyes upon, and pressure the US to come up with an alternate.

[wellard]

Just so people can access the views of PETA without taint and with an open mind here is a link.

http://www.peta.org/alert/automation...tem.asp?id=686

Originally posted by wellard: They do look like two very bad examples Timber. Thank goodness that the mink episode did not happen in Australia. *Shudders* and I've been a member of an injured wildlife rescue outfit for a while and seemed to spend half the time putting down injured animals. So I am with you all the way on these two issues. PETA would have you skewered for putting down injured animals. You should have life flighted them to the nearest emergency hospital for treatment....Im not kidding. PETA = radical extremists. In theory I agree with ethical treatment for animals, but in practice I hold animals on a level below that of Humans. No doubt if we trawl through the list of "actions" by PETA we will find more examples that are a result of hearts leading heads. But to start the thread with PETA freaks.... is surely leading the jury and to hang a whole organization from the result of some actions by its members is a bit unfair IMO. If so very many of it's members were not so radical and extreme they would get more respect I think. Respect is earned, not an inalienable right. Not forgetting as a leader on this board, on animal and environmental issues, people who respect your views as the most informed will have read this "PETA freaks" thread and may come to the conclusion that all PETA actions are crazy *"Why even Timber thinks so"* I know you can't and should not be held responsible for what others make of your views, but maybe it is worth keeping in mind [img]tongue.gif[/img] Next issue [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img] I'm quite sure that the dolphins are treated better than anywhere else in the world where they are working for humans. Also, as I have not heard otherwise, I am prepared to accept that there has been no known dolphin deaths regarding US minesweeping. However this does not mean that putting their lives in danger when there might well be a better mechanical alternate is acceptable. It is a cause to keep our eyes upon, and pressure the US to come up with an alternate. As I said, they are working feverishly to try and come up with better mechanical alternatives, because it will end up being cheaper (if for no other reason) As I said, taking care of Dolphins is expensive

Edit: Wanted to ammend that I hold MOST animals on a level below that of MOST people...there are exceptions...

[ 04-15-2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Timber Loftis]

Fair points, Wellard. My view *is* skewed on PETA, and organization which my wife was once a member of. We had a friend in law school who interviewed to be a PETA lawyer. She got in an argument with one of the more known leaders there during the interview. Apparently this leader, whose name I do not know, and her disagreed on *which* animal causes were worth championing - with the leader coming down on the side of championing the causes of "cute" animals (which tugs the heartstring more, and is thus better politically for such a grass roots organization - no pun. )

Like I may have mentioned, they have some good points. I like lettuce ladies. [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img] I married one. I like their view of the health side in most instances - though I *am* aware they are willing to skew the truth some (e.g. there is little argument that fish is very health - so long as there's no bioacumulated crap in it [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img] ) But, I will accept that contaminating the jury is not fair for me to do.

Personally, I support The Humane Society these days.

Finally, let me thank you for encouraging me to use the "heee" smiley, which certainly has a personality all its own, and is simply often more appropriate than , [img]smile.gif[/img] , , or [img]tongue.gif[/img] .
[img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]