09-25-2001, 02:37 AM | #31 | |
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One can choose not to be a victim, although to an outsider it may appear that they are. I was not a victim when a warmonger threw a rock at me while I peacefully advocated peace. In my perspective, the perpetrator and victim are one and the same when it comes to violence. For being peaceful perpetrates peace, now who wants to be a victim of that? |
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09-25-2001, 02:45 AM | #32 | |
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
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As I said, it takes two to live in conflict and two to live in peace. ------------------ I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... A fair dinkum laughing Hyena! |
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09-25-2001, 02:55 AM | #33 | |
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Yorrick, Inner peace, unconditional...transcends outer conditions. It is an inner condition, one that we are not condition to expirience. It take self awareness and discipline of some measure. But it is peace. Ask the Dali Lama. Peacefulness is accepting the limitations of the violent to be peaceful, for example. But to not have expirienced it for yourself, I am trying to describe breathing air to a fish. I agree to disagree. |
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09-25-2001, 03:17 AM | #34 | |
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
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I shall avoid being insulted by your above posts because you do not know me. You should not presume one you don't know to have not experienced inner peace. I repeat. Peace and conflict require two parties to exist. Inner peace is something totally different, and let us say that I strongly, very very strongly disagree with the Dalai Lamas method of attaining it. ------------------ I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... A fair dinkum laughing Hyena! [This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-25-2001).] |
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09-25-2001, 08:32 AM | #35 | ||
Fzoul Chembryl
Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
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09-25-2001, 09:15 AM | #36 | |
Fzoul Chembryl
Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
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Ok. The text I based the above information on is actually Jewish in origin. It is called The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict, and is published by Jews for Justice in the Middle East. The writers themselves make the point that as Jews, they are not anti-semitic, and 'do not believe that the Jews acted any worse than any other group might have acted in their situation.' Their goal was simply to outline the history of Palestine to provide some insight into the roots of the conflict. 'Our position is that the Palestinians, rather than being irrational terrorists who have no point of view worth listening to, have a real grievance. Their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel. All subsequent crimes, on both sides, inevitably follow from this original injustice. That is my view also, and I used information from the above mentioned publication to support my view. No, I do not believe that the Jews should just 'die'. Please Yorick, do not read things into my posts that are not there! Why do you assume I am anti-semitic? I am not at all. (To slightly adapt the old cliche, some of my best (read nicest ) lovers have been Jewish..... ) Although I do not condone many of the actions that Palestinians have taken to retrieve their land, I do find the representation of the Palestine - Israeli conflict presented in the media to be unbalanced and untrue. Rather than argue the point here, which we could do for ever, - you quoting from your sources and I from mine (and I'm sure you are a much better debater than I am, and will probably run rings around me! might I suggest that you, and anyone else who is interested, take a look at the booklet I used as source. The address is http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html The reason I posted my post was because I am getting very tired of the media and political portrayal of the Palestinians as merely terrorists, whilst the Israelis, who fight just as dirty, are seen as being defenders of their state, and justified and legal in what they do, which is far from the case. I have a certain sympathy for both sides, for different reasons. I wish both sides could agree to live together in peace and harmony. However, at present that looks like a dream that is very far from being realised. I think that the little booklet I mention is very illuminating on this whole topic. People owe it to themselves to look at the background, rather than just accept the generally accepted point of view which is perpetrated in the media. (Before you start stamping on my head here - I am not talking about you here! Although I do not agree with your viewpoint, I accept that you have researched your point. There are many views of history, depending on who is doing the telling. In the end, which version you go with is going to depend on whether it acceptable, given your own personal beliefs, experience and world view, and the same goes for me.) Yorick - if we are to talk further on this, can we please keep it friendly and polite? I do not want to enter into an aggressive discussion on this matter, and will not. I will post more on this later or tomorrow. For the present I must leave it there, as I have little time. ------------------ |
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09-25-2001, 09:24 AM | #37 | |
Fzoul Chembryl
Join Date: July 26, 2001
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Come ON you people! Humour is not just allowed on this thread, it is WELCOMED!! The situation is sad and serious - but we ain't go to build a better world by going about with long faces ALL the time. And can we please respond to each other without quite so much snap, crackle and pop. This is a debate between equals, not a fight to the death! ------------------ |
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09-25-2001, 09:32 AM | #38 | |
Fzoul Chembryl
Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
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Anyway, to respond to both you and Yorick on this, very briefly..... saying thank god doesn't entail believing in any kind of god. When people in the UK (not a very religious country at all), say thank god, they just mean 'Oh I'm so relieved it turned out that way'. Because the god concept is so deeply engrained in the culture, and hence the language, in many cases people are using the word completely detatched from its original meaning. I really don't see the need to capitalise god in this case. Of course, some people purposely don't capitalise it, to show that they are not believers. I suspect the majority don't give it a thought - and Luther probably comes into that category. Anyway, not that it really matters...... I suggest those who want to capitalise it, do so, and those who don't, go with the lower case! ------------------ |
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09-25-2001, 09:49 AM | #39 | |
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------------------ *\Conan/* |
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09-25-2001, 10:37 AM | #40 |
Fzoul Chembryl
Join Date: March 29, 2001
Location: Montréal, Canada
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Back to the original post, I personally think that the creation of Israel (assisted by the Western World) is by far the BIGGEST political blunder of the XXth Century. The rightfull owners of Palestine were the Palestinians, not the Jews.
As a side note, it's followed by the Great War and the United Nations. ------------------ If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I? [This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 09-25-2001).] |
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