Happy Europe Day :)

[philip]

...

[Dreamer128]

Let's debate [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: There are three main reasons why I don't like it: 1) It has an exceptional talent for making advanced economies uncompetitive 2) Its tariff barrier causes much hardship in the 3rd world and increases prices for European consumers. Inefficiency! 3) The almost total lack of an achievable consensus.

1) It is often said that the 'Red-Tape' from Bussels needlessly restricts businesses. In the Netherlands, it was always widely believed that about 70 percent of our laws and restrictions came from Europe. Recent investigations, however, have shown that only 12.3 percent of our laws come from Brussels. Since we all adopt the same legislation, it should be even less in the UK (you have multiple parliaments, we only have one ). Besides that, the single market led to greater foreign competition for Dutch companies. Which not only led to lower prices, but also forced many companies to improve their efficiency. An example: the top three Dutch banks all being part of the top fifteen of the world. Also, you may find this article (which is in PDF) very interesting.

2)I agree. Silly subsidies. But let's not forget that the EU is also the biggest donor on development aid in the world. And under the new Constitution, the parliament will have complete power over the budget. This means we will finally be able to get rid of our insane agracultural subsidies (consuming a third of the total EU budget) and the likes. And there is also the Lome Convention, which grants 77 third-world countries acces to the European Market.

3)There are many cases in which we have reached consensus, to the benefit of everyone. And under the constitution, the new voting system (based on a qualified majority) will greatly simplify the current system. Which will prevent countries from 'selling' their veto's in the future. (which happened many time when negotiating the treaty of Nice)


Philip: the new system provides for more 'direct democracy'. Meaning, more power for the Europarlementariers (for whom we vote direcly) as opposed to the Council of Ministers (Ministers from the various memberstates, which are appointed by our national governments). Hopefully, this will lead to people taking a more active interest in European Affairs. Also, Europe has never been as 'bureaucratic' as many people believe. The European Commission actually employs less civil servants (don't know if that's the right translation - ik heb het over ambtenaren [img]smile.gif[/img] ) then the city of Rotterdam.

[ 05-10-2005, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]

[johnny]

Originally posted by Dreamer128: quote: Originally posted by johnny: quote: Originally posted by philip: Still undecided what I'm going to vote (for -> edit that didn't belong here but well see the rest of my post ). I see the big problems and well I don't really like some things in the EU now but that's not going to change anyway. But it's worse that I haven't seen much from our government why we'd want to be voting for it. Will probably make their job a bit harder or give them more work cause of more rules and that they actually have to do more in the EU.

But they DID give us a few pros about the constitution. Europe will become more democratic and less bureaucratic. I only wonder if there's anyone stupid enough to fall for that crap. They said basically the same thing about the €, how we would all benefit from it. Hah...look where it brought us. [/QUOTE]The Euro would make Europe more democratic and less bureaucratic? I though it was all about enhancing trade within the Union by eliminating exchange rate fluxuations. [img]tongue.gif[/img] On another note, Europe will never able to challenge the 'American hegemony'. Well, at least not in the near future. In fourty years their economy will be twice as large as our own, and their population will be nearly twice as young. [/QUOTE]You didn't read what i said, the Euro would be better for all of us, the new constitution would bring a better democracy and less bureaucracy. Those were the exact words from Wouter Bos, when he was asked what the benefits of a European constitution would be for all of us. It's exactly answers like this that keeps people clueless. I myself got the list of what the constitution is all about, but i was a little disencouraged to read it completely, because....well, if you've seen it with your own eyes, you'll understand why. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[ 05-10-2005, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: johnny ]

[Dreamer128]

I must confess to having read most of the wretched document, Johnny. And yeah, the promotion of the Constitution is aweful. The government decided to come up with a 'Grondwetkrant'(Constitution-paper) which contained the same articles you find in the treaty. In other words: boring like hell, and packed with terms which might just as well have been written in Latin, since it's doubtful anyone knows what they mean. With a government like ours, who needs Eurosceptics?
Besides that, the euro does in fact offer many advantages to which the average citizen is oblivious. Consider that eighty percent our trade is with other EU-countries. We have little use for twenty-five different coins in the Union. All of which have a value that changes which each passing day. Because the guilder was too cheap when we joined the Euro, it led to short-term inflation, but on the long run it means a structural reinforcement to our ecomomy.

[ 05-11-2005, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]

[johnny]

Our economy will be fine regardless, i'm more concerned about my own wallet right now. Ah well, i can still snatch old ladies' purses and stuff...matter of fact, there goes one passed my window right now....brb. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

Edit: damn old fart, 2€, a couple of hankies, one of which was used, and a box of breathmints. What's wrong with old people these days ?

[ 05-11-2005, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: johnny ]

[Svaerdhelgon]

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: 2) It will ensure an end to European war.

Well,I wouldn´t think so.I believe that It would cause several civil wars in the future.

[shamrock_uk]

Originally posted by Dreamer128: Let's debate [img]smile.gif[/img]

Maybe after my exams [img]smile.gif[/img]

In the meantime, I offer you this snippet, fresh off the press:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4535815.stm

[Dreamer128]

I have a hard time believing any EU related news coming from the British press.
I'll admit, at first I was rather sceptical concerning the constant accusations of bias directed towards British journalists, but after I saw the BBC coverage of the signing of the European Constitution, I couldn't deny that something is seriously wrong with the press on the other side of the sea. Examples below. [img]smile.gif[/img]

-Link 1.
-Link 2.

In regards to news posted above. (a more extensive article can be found
here) In order to scrap said rule, the proposal needs to go through both the Council of Ministers (the finance ministers of all memberstates, in this case) and the European Parliament. Under qualified majority, you need the support of almost 2/3 of the memberstates. If the proposal is half as bad as it is claimed, it will never get through.

[ 05-14-2005, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]

[shamrock_uk]

The trouble is, there's a Europe-wide rebellion against the Anglo-Saxon model so support might well be forthcoming.

But its quite ironic - the BBC is more usually panned over here for its biased pro-European coverage!

Hehe...

[johnny]

The way the pro section in the Netherlands is campaigning is absolutely hilarious. It seems the only thing they can come up with is trying to make the people scared with all sorts of doomscenarios like deathcamps and war.

Still voting no.