Teenage Pregnancy: A Debate

[Thoran]

Originally posted by PurpleXVI: Thoran: Firstly, not all of the Islamic world is that fanatical. Secondly, there are plenty of places in the "Christian" world where you'd find some pretty extreme consequences as well. Thirdly, if anything, the consequences just mean they get very good at hiding it and that you meet a lot of back-alley abortions and such-like, it also means they don't get reported, they are probably as bad as we are. Islamic teenagers are as "hormone-addled" as Western teenagers.

Well we're talking about in general here... in the vast majority of the west there are no government mandated costs for pregnancy, few remaining social costs, so all the old time "Scarlett Letter" punishments that tended to prevent pregnancy are gone. In the Arab world they are still very much in place, as well as in other conservative Islamic nations (Pakistan, etc...). In those countries the strict seperation of the sexes means that no matter how hormone soaked the kids are... opportunity just isn't there. Sure there's exceptions to any rule... but the scale of the problem in those nations is several orders of magnitude less than in the west. You don't have to worry about back alley abortions if the kids never see a memeber of the opposite sex to get pregnant (or get them pregnant).

As I said... we may not like it but their system is far more effective at solving this particular problem than anything our "kinder, gentler" societies can come up with.

[Morgeruat]

You also see less of it when unreported honor killings remove the shame without anyone being the wiser.

[Bungleau]

Or anyone being the winner.

[Thoran]

Yup... we absolutely can hate the implementation but that doesn't change the fact that it IS possible to make consequences "Work" (which was the point)... you just need to make the consequences significant enough (something we are unwilling to do in the west).

I don't think there's anything to be done about the problem which would fit our current sense of "right and wrong" here in the west. Even my flippant comment about mandatory birth control would result in a firestorm of outrage if any politician actually had the audacity to mention it as a possiblity.

[PurpleXVI]

Uh, Thoran, I think they were DISAGREEING with you by saying that it still happens, but that the pregnant girls just happen to mysteriously vanish and never be seen again. Or happen to have miscarriages out of the blue.

The problem with the birth control thing would also be the fact that, to the best of my knowledge, a lot of birth control things can cause hormonal upsets, which is really not what teenagers or younger need. Hormonal screw-ups can have negative consequences for physical development and mental stability. Teenagers can be wierd enough as it is without the mental problems associated with growing up being exacerbated.

You also have yet to quote numbers that actually prove your assertion. Hearsay and anecdotes do not count, get us a study with proper methodology before you make these sorts of claims.

[Cerek]

1) What would you do if your daughter(Or some theoretical daughter you may one day have) got pregnant at, say, 14 or thereabouts?

If I had a daughter who became pregnant as a young teenager, she absolutely would have the baby and I would provide whatever assistance was needed to help raise the child. I would also do everything I could to either keep her in school or guide her towards getting her G.E.D. Then she would be able to get at least a halfway decent job to help support her child. We also have a good community college she could attend to improve her employment opportunities. While I don't have any daughters, I do have 3 boys. If they ever get their teen girlfriend pregnant, the same rules will apply. They will accept the consequences and responsibilities of their actions and I will do what I can to help them with the child and their education.

2) Do you think this is actually anything new, or just the way it's always been, but less socially acceptable and less easy to cover up these days?

I believe the concept of teen pregnancy being "fashionable" is certainly new. It's not new for teens to act upon their sexual desires, but actually wanting to get pregnant is new. Usually, teens want to have sex just for the fun of having sex. Pregnancies were unexpected "oopsies".

3) Do you think there's anything to be done, or is it just human nature?

Education and honost, open discussions are the best ways to prevent teen pregnency. Educating teens (girls especially) about how dramatically their lives will be changed by having a baby is imperative. The fathers bear the same responsibility, but it is a lot easier for the dads to "skip out" of these obligations than it is for the mom. Our social morals can also be changed through media manipulation. Smoking was glamorized in the 1950's, socially acceptable in the 1970's, criticized in the 1990's and ostracized(sp?) now. Teens are highly susceptible to media messages. Change the message from "Pregnant is fashionable and trendy" to "Pregnancy will alter your life forever" and the values will begin to change accordingly.

4) Do you think these girls are making a terrible, stupid choice or that it's perfectly legitimate to decide that you want to be a mother in your teens?

They are making a terrible, stupid choice because they are too young to fully comprehend just how drastically their lives will be changed by having a baby. They are now responsible for another life, so their own life gets put on hold. They can no longer take off to hang out with their friends, go to the mall or even go to the prom. Now they have a little person who is helpless and completely dependent upon them to care for their needs. It takes a mental maturity to be a parent and very, very few teenagers come anywhere close to the commitment and sense of obligation required to care for a baby.

[PurpleXVI]

Originally posted by Cerek: If I had a daughter who became pregnant as a young teenager, she absolutely would have the baby

Maybe I am misreading this, but are you saying that you wouldn't give your daughter the option of either putting the child up for adoption or aborting? I can understand not suggesting it, if it is against your beliefs, but what if she wants it?

[ 03-08-2007, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: PurpleXVI ]

[Cerek]

Originally posted by PurpleXVI: Maybe I am misreading this, but are you saying that you wouldn't give your daughter the option of either putting the child up for adoption or aborting? I can understand not suggesting it, if it is against your beliefs, but what if she wants it?

Abortion does go against my religious beliefs, but that is not the only reason I oppose it. It also goes against my value of personal responsibility. Abortion is most frequently used as an after-the-fact method of birth control. There are too many methods and products availabe to prevent a pregnancy before it occurs to justify eliminating it later because the couple didn't take precautions.

As for putting the baby up for adoption, I would file for custody and raise the child myself. It would be my grandchild and I would have a legal claim to the child if my daughter forfeited her parental rights.

[Thoran]

Originally posted by PurpleXVI: Uh, Thoran, I think they were DISAGREEING with you by saying that it still happens, but that the pregnant girls just happen to mysteriously vanish and never be seen again. Or happen to have miscarriages out of the blue. The problem with the birth control thing would also be the fact that, to the best of my knowledge, a lot of birth control things can cause hormonal upsets, which is really not what teenagers or younger need. Hormonal screw-ups can have negative consequences for physical development and mental stability. Teenagers can be wierd enough as it is without the mental problems associated with growing up being exacerbated. You also have yet to quote numbers that actually prove your assertion. Hearsay and anecdotes do not count, get us a study with proper methodology before you make these sorts of claims.

Sorry for the long delay in response... been busy busy.

Pregnant girls diappearing... lol... nice straw man. If 1 teenage girl disappeared in the Middle East for every 50 Teen Pregnancies in a similar sized chunk of the West -well- there'd be no women left in the middle east. You can't take a horrible occurance that happens in very small percentages and compare it to the commonplace as though they're equal.

My very logical assertion was that teenage pregnancy has been reduced in the Middle East due to the level of punishment and total lack of social acceptance for the behavior. Frankly... your assertion is by far the more extreme... I would like to see YOUR numbers comparing the occurances of 'disappearing' young women in the middle east and see how well they stack up to the millions of easily documented teenage pregnancies in the west. You want studies, spend 10 seconds doing a google search for teenage pregnancy, compare that to the occurances of 'honor killings', do the math.

I make the claim because I know darn well that teen pregnancy in the middle east is probably 50 times less likely to occur than teen pregnancy in the west. I've been there a number of times, I know how those folks live... the controls on teenage behavior (at least sexual... you should see them drive their sports cars around though... MANIACS). My assertion might be flawed, heck I may be off by an entire factor of 2. At that point I'll have to admit that I'm only... ahh... right by a factor of 25 instead of 50. In the analysis... the likelyhood that I'm totally off and pregnancy's just as likely in the middle east compared to here is basically zero... and I'd LOVE to see a report... ANY report that claims it isn't.

At this point there's no contraception that could be considered safe... especially for developing children, but in high risk areas the risk/benefit might tip in favor of using something like the subcutaneous version of the Pill... which by all reports has proven very safe. Of course the point is moot... who in their right mind would allow the state to gain so much control over our lives that such a draconian measure could ever be realistically taken? It was more of a wistful thought... that there could be a 'silver bullet' that could fix such a complex problem in one fell swoop.

[PurpleXVI]

I am not making a claim, here, I am merely saying what I believe other people were trying to tell you. Ask them for their numbers, if I were right.

And you are still not supplying yours, when you have numbers backing up your statement, then we'll talk about whether it's correlation or coincidence.

You live in NY and you've VISITED the Middle East, unless you've actually lived there for longer periods I doubt you'd know the issue just from that. And let's not forget about dangerous back-alley abortions, that'd sure hide things well, too.

We also do not need to back up our claims, our claim is the baseline, that people are people across the world, with little variety in certain aspects. A deviation from the expected and accepted is what needs to be proven. I do not, for example, need to prove that the sky is blue or that you need air to breathe, however you would need to prove assertions to the opposite.