yet another muslim terror plot in the UK

[Morgeruat]

"They have no alternative message. There is no active missionary work among the youth telling them, do not become jihadis. They do not use media means as much as the jihadis. They simply — they’re reactive and they don’t seem to be able to compete with the jihadis. And every time there is a debate between a real jihadi and, say, what we have decided to call moderate Muslims, the jihadis win. Because they come with the Koran and quotes from the Koran. The come with quotes from the Hadith and the Sunnah, and the traditions of the prophet. And every assertion they make, whether it is that women should be veiled, or Jews should be killed, or Americans are our enemies, or any of that, they win. Because what they have to say is so consistent with what is written in the Koran and the Hadith. And what the moderates fail to do is to say, listen, that’s all in there, but that wasn’t meant for this context. And we have moved on. We can change the Koran, we can change the Hadith. That’s what’s missing."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/we...in&oref=slogin

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: "They have no alternative message. There is no active missionary work among the youth telling them, do not become jihadis. They do not use media means as much as the jihadis. They simply — they’re reactive and they don’t seem to be able to compete with the jihadis. And every time there is a debate between a real jihadi and, say, what we have decided to call moderate Muslims, the jihadis win. Because they come with the Koran and quotes from the Koran. The come with quotes from the Hadith and the Sunnah, and the traditions of the prophet. And every assertion they make, whether it is that women should be veiled, or Jews should be killed, or Americans are our enemies, or any of that, they win. Because what they have to say is so consistent with what is written in the Koran and the Hadith. And what the moderates fail to do is to say, listen, that’s all in there, but that wasn’t meant for this context. And we have moved on. We can change the Koran, we can change the Hadith. That’s what’s missing." http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/we...in&oref=slogin

It's always a debate about context, Morguerat. Because anyone can spin something to make it support a particular point of view. You could do the same with the Bible (and we can't just exclude the Old Testament by saying that the New Testament is peace and love while the Old is violence - they're all part of the same Bible).

Islam has no formal clergy, which is an advantage as well as a disadvantage. It's an advantage because in theory there is nobody between you and God - it's all about how YOU interpret the message. None of that stuff like Dan Brown and other conspiracists allege happened to the Catholic Church - that parts were changed to suit the political needs of the early 1st to 3rd centuries, because there's no clergy or pope to get in the way.

It's also a disadvantage for the same reason - there is nobody between you and God. But we're not all born equal - some of us can read, some of us can't. And anyone can call themselves a mullah, as long as they have: 1) studied the Quran; 2) have a bit of charisma; and 3) have a really loud voice. Add to that some pressure points like Israel, Iraq, Kashmir and other areas where Muslims are being "oppressed" and you have a recipe for indoctrination via cult of personality.

Anyway, we're really moving into the whys and wherefores of religion now, which violates our moratorium. I'll have to cut it here - but if you're interested I invite you to read this thread on another site. I'm not trying to cross promote but from your previous posts where you've introduced this type of subject material I feel that you're just dying to talk about this stuff, so maybe you'll find it interesting (or maybe not - depends on whether or not your mind's made up already).

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by wellard: SO agree Memnoch [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] What is needed is a huge march or mass meeting in London. 30,000 or more all muslims, organised by muslims so the public of the UK can see that mainstream Islamists really do reject this fascist ideology. this is not a problem that non muslims can cure.

IIRC they tried that in Washington DC, the turn out was less than stellar, around 150 people showed up. I'll try and dig up a link...

Memnoch, You're right, it's very much a cult of personality with imams, much like Jewish rabbis the congregation can remove you if they object to your teachings, but as you said if you're charismatic and seem to have a knowledge of what you're spouting you won't (usually) be stopped from preaching. (I'll definitely check the article when I have some spare time)

[ 02-07-2007, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

[Morgeruat]

Memnoch, sent you a PM.

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: Memnoch, sent you a PM.

I know it's a very long article - I myself don't know what's in the middle part of it.