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Old 02-23-2006, 11:21 AM   #21
Timber Loftis
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You know what, the more I learn about this the more I think it's a tempest in a teapot. It really is true -- the outrage against this deal comes not from knowledge, but really from prejudice.

On the other hand, Lou Dobbs broke a story yesterday about the Bush's ties to this deal. Apparently W's brother (Jeb?) is involved in selling stock related to this deal recently. I wish I caught Lou last night, but alas and alack the Demons and Ogres in Dire Maul needed sweeping.
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Old 02-23-2006, 11:48 AM   #22
Chewbacca
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Quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
You know what, the more I learn about this the more I think it's a tempest in a teapot. It really is true -- the outrage against this deal comes not from knowledge, but really from prejudice.

On the other hand, Lou Dobbs broke a story yesterday about the Bush's ties to this deal. Apparently W's brother (Jeb?) is involved in selling stock related to this deal recently. I wish I caught Lou last night, but alas and alack the Demons and Ogres in Dire Maul needed sweeping.
Not Jeb, Neil Bush. The big money connections are high up on the ladder in this case so they have the position and resources to influence policy regardless of the outcome or the details.

One word is discrimination, not prejudice. I'm glad to discriminate agianst this deal and to an extent the people involved in making it, but not for issues of race, culture, or religion.

The other word is concern, rather than outrage. Concern for my government's policy, how it is formed, and how it is influenced.
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Old 02-23-2006, 11:50 AM   #23
Chewbacca
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Quote:
Originally posted by wanderon:
A good portion of the terminals in the ports of this country (USA) are leased by the Chinese whom we have some issues with politically as well - whats the difference? This is not about politics is about commerce.
Well there are plenty of differences. I'm skeptikal about our trade relationship with communist China and disagree in principle with supporting that type of regime economically.
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Old 02-23-2006, 12:02 PM   #24
True_Moose
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morgeruat:
As my gov't teacher in High School said, governments are designed to spend money, not make it.
Not always true. In the battle between the two big Canadian air carriers, the one that was a former Crown Corporation (Air Canada,) won out against Canadian Airlines, which was characterised by bungling and incompetence at many levels. Now, AC had been de-Crown(ed) but its superiority had been established long prior, and since privatisation, its problems have multiplied, its profits have tumbled, and its reputation has been circling the drain.
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Old 02-23-2006, 12:49 PM   #25
wanderon
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chewbacca:
quote:
Originally posted by wanderon:
A good portion of the terminals in the ports of this country (USA) are leased by the Chinese whom we have some issues with politically as well - whats the difference? This is not about politics is about commerce.
Well there are plenty of differences. I'm skeptikal about our trade relationship with communist China and disagree in principle with supporting that type of regime economically. [/QUOTE]So then you would favor not allowing any companies from foriegn countries we disagree with politically to do business at all in this country? I'm thinking that would be quite a list.

And even if that were the case thats not the policy in force TODAY what possible reason could we use for stopping this deal when other companies based in foriegn countries are in fact doing the exact same thing as DP World will be doing?

Of course if our intent is to totally destroy any credibilty we might have today in the Arab world then stopping the deal is indeed a good move...
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Old 02-23-2006, 01:52 PM   #26
Chewbacca
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Quote:
Originally posted by wanderon:
quote:
Originally posted by Chewbacca:
quote:
Originally posted by wanderon:
A good portion of the terminals in the ports of this country (USA) are leased by the Chinese whom we have some issues with politically as well - whats the difference? This is not about politics is about commerce.
Well there are plenty of differences. I'm skeptikal about our trade relationship with communist China and disagree in principle with supporting that type of regime economically. [/QUOTE]So then you would favor not allowing any companies from foriegn countries we disagree with politically to do business at all in this country? I'm thinking that would be quite a list. [/QUOTE]That is an amazing extrapolation! Talk about slanting the issue!

Take the term "foriegn companies" and add the words "STATE-OWNED" then yes I have a healthy dose of skepticism and a very high standard.

Quote:


And even if that were the case thats not the policy in force TODAY what possible reason could we use for stopping this deal when other companies based in foriegn countries are in fact doing the exact same thing as DP World will be doing?
Again it goes back to the "state-owned" issue and the exact State in parrticular.

Quote:

Of course if our intent is to totally destroy any credibilty we might have today in the Arab world then stopping the deal is indeed a good move...
HA! So what- we diss some of their rich people! Besides, I give not even a rats tail-end about what the "arab" world thinks about the U.S. at this point.

Anyway this UAE is a state that recognized the Taliban, Balked at cuting off Al Queda money, was a brokerage point for illegal nuclear arms parts proliferation, and does not recognize the statehood of Isreal. I even read somewhere That we passed on a chance to hit Bin Ladin in the 90's because half of an Emirates royal family were his houseguests in Afganistan.

I find being skeptikal about doing business with them to be the correct path to take at this point.
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Old 02-23-2006, 02:51 PM   #27
Morgeruat
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Wanderon while you do raise some good points you also deflect and ignore the issue that it is a state owned and operated business, I do appreciate the enlightenment you've brought to the discussion, a bit more than the computer-chair google-bot quarterbacking the rest of us have been forced to do due to lack of first-hand knowledge, but it doesn't make me feel any better about a foreign arab government directly controlling several ports, while the piers and outlets may be small now it's a foot in the door, and could potentially mean that much more work for the already taxed port authorities to keep tabs on.

As for squandering US credibility in the ME, show a video of a US flag burning in ANY arab country (with the possible exception of some sections of Kuwait) and you'll get roaring applause and likely cries of Allahu Akbar.

The only "credibility," which I'll substitute to goodwill which seems more appropriate in this case, that we have in the ME is with the dictators who want to keep us appeased so we don't turn our attention on what goes on in their countries (Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran in general, Saudi Arabia playing us against wahabbi islam in a desperate bid to keep the populace from recognizing the royal families own decadence and revolting against them, etc etc). With a foothold in Iraq now (which GWB seems unwilling to withdraw we don't need stagin points in the rest of the region as we can stage attacks from the Mediterranian, Persian Gulf, Afganistan or Iraq if need be. {/rambling rant} to sum it up, we have no credibility with Joe Schmoe arab, and we only risk offending those who consistently doubletalk "the great satan" who use us as an excuse to hold onto the reigns of power in their own little dictatorships.
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Old 02-23-2006, 03:01 PM   #28
Morgeruat
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Quote:
Originally posted by True_Moose:
quote:
Originally posted by Morgeruat:
As my gov't teacher in High School said, governments are designed to spend money, not make it.
Not always true. In the battle between the two big Canadian air carriers, the one that was a former Crown Corporation (Air Canada,) won out against Canadian Airlines, which was characterised by bungling and incompetence at many levels. Now, AC had been de-Crown(ed) but its superiority had been established long prior, and since privatisation, its problems have multiplied, its profits have tumbled, and its reputation has been circling the drain. [/QUOTE]Good point, I know in the US, government employees = very strong union that makes firing someone almost impossible and places someone with seniority into positions regardless of qualifications (here at carlisle barracks when the visual information department went to contractors many of the gov't employees "shifted" to lower skill level jobs, bumping those with less seniority, but potentially greater capability to do the work in question).

Essentially (at least in the US) most (but not necessarily all) government jobs are littered with bloat, unnecessary redundancy, and other forms of FWA (fraud waste and abuse), unfortunately due to unions and "nice" leaders trying to avoid putting people out of work, it continues (I don't think anyone in the VI department who didn't opt for retirement or hiring on with the contractors lost their government job).
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Old 02-23-2006, 03:42 PM   #29
shamrock_uk
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chewbacca:
quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
On the other hand, Lou Dobbs broke a story yesterday about the Bush's ties to this deal. Apparently W's brother (Jeb?) is involved in selling stock related to this deal recently. I wish I caught Lou last night, but alas and alack the Demons and Ogres in Dire Maul needed sweeping.
Not Jeb, Neil Bush. The big money connections are high up on the ladder in this case so they have the position and resources to influence policy regardless of the outcome or the details.[/QUOTE]Aah, that explains why Bush was willing to use his veto to stop any blocking attempts from occuring. I was wondering why he was weighing in so heavily against his own party on this one.
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Old 02-23-2006, 03:51 PM   #30
True_Moose
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Join Date: June 18, 2002
Location: Wolfville, NS / Calgary, AB
Age: 38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morgeruat:
quote:
Originally posted by True_Moose:
quote:
Originally posted by Morgeruat:
As my gov't teacher in High School said, governments are designed to spend money, not make it.
Not always true. In the battle between the two big Canadian air carriers, the one that was a former Crown Corporation (Air Canada,) won out against Canadian Airlines, which was characterised by bungling and incompetence at many levels. Now, AC had been de-Crown(ed) but its superiority had been established long prior, and since privatisation, its problems have multiplied, its profits have tumbled, and its reputation has been circling the drain. [/QUOTE]Good point, I know in the US, government employees = very strong union that makes firing someone almost impossible and places someone with seniority into positions regardless of qualifications (here at carlisle barracks when the visual information department went to contractors many of the gov't employees "shifted" to lower skill level jobs, bumping those with less seniority, but potentially greater capability to do the work in question).

Essentially (at least in the US) most (but not necessarily all) government jobs are littered with bloat, unnecessary redundancy, and other forms of FWA (fraud waste and abuse), unfortunately due to unions and "nice" leaders trying to avoid putting people out of work, it continues (I don't think anyone in the VI department who didn't opt for retirement or hiring on with the contractors lost their government job).
[/QUOTE]That may be because of differences between the two systems. It seems that in Canada, a Crown Corporation is sort of in that gray area between public and private - it competes on the open market, but assures Canadians of getting certain services the government wants to guarantee - this is assured by some level of funding in those particular areas only. As such, the employees of the company aren't really government employees at all, and are still driven by profit incentives. This avoids many of the problems you have pointed out above.
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