WAR MISCALCULATIONS

[pritchke]

You are possibly correct Mordenheim. However when this is all over and Saddam is removed and the people of Iraq tell you they wish your troops to leave their territory you will oblige them. However it is likely that the only reason your government decided to attack Iraq is to occupy for several possible reasons. If it was to free the people their would be a country in Africa that would be attacked right now and I would now problem with that. However your government has ulterior motives. The people do not want Saddam but they do not wish to be occupied by American soldiers either. As far as the treatment of women are concerned please clean up the way your air force officers treat women in the military. Yes I know about the sexual assaults that many of your fine officers have placed on women training in the US air force.

[ 04-02-2003, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Mordenheim]

lol, ok, I am sure the people will tell us to leave at the same time they are taking our food off trucks while killing themself to do it. Oh wait you expect france, russia, and countries that shed no blood for them to go in and take over? I don't think so.

I would be willing to wager the people will get along just fine for the month or whatever it takes to finish off the Sadam regime. Care to place a bet? The same people crying about Afghanistan were wrong and they will be wrong again.

As for that last remark, see that is what is great about America. It was caught and will be dealt with. Funny how law's work huh? Every one of those men will face a military court. I bet they wished they lived in Iraq where you can rape women daily with impunity and pride. Too bad they don't.

[ 04-02-2003, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Mordenheim ]

[Animal]

Originally posted by Mordenheim: You are such a idealist but SO wrong. In no way can you or anyone else EVER defend what is going on by a select few of the upper crust in Iraq. Not now, not tommorow, not ever. I don't have to understand the mentality that allows raping women in the street, torturing children, mass murder of you're own people for god's sake. I don't want to even begin to try to think about such madness. This was before the war. They put their own people in PAPER shredders! Look at the taliban. They would MURDER a woman for showing a ankle. A FREAKING ANKLE! And you dare me to try to understand that culture, religion, way of life? I just seen three day's ago on discovery live them dancing in the street! women with no shawl and men clean shaven. I seen building, American, British, and Afghani's rebuilding a lifetime robbed from them by the Taliban. If we listened to idealists like you the people would still be getting beat, raped, and FORCED to follow some radical stone age version of Islam. The courage and dedication? Man you are so lost in space. Anyone can grab a child of some parent and force them to fight. Anyone can hang a woman from a fence and dare the next person to stand up. That don't take courage. That takes NO value in you're own people. That takes a sickness I would rather die before I began to see into that type of mind. They are willing to die in the proccess? Give me a break! If they don't fight they will die anyway by their own government. Why don't you get in reality. Defense of a country? WRONG, They are defending their Government. They are defending a lifestyle that has them in power over all. The only people willing to fight are people who have been butchering people for a decade. I REALLY hope you are around when this is over. When the stories flood out and pictures of people talking the truth. When no threat is there to hold them back. When no stone age freak can keep them silent by hanging his mother up. I almost wish they would take people with you're mindset after the war and have you say the same thing in front of the then free people. I wish to see that response. I have listened to exile after exile talk about how Sadam has to be removed and force is the only way. I don't need people who have never once felt threatned telling me what people who scared about thrown in a paper shredder are fighting for. In no way despite culture, religion, can anyone ever say this radical Islam is right. In no way can anyone say treating women like trash and everything else is "ok"[/QB]

I don't seem to recall defending anyone...particularly the select few uppercrust in Iraq. I'm not discussing the attrocities commited by Saddam, or his chosen few, and not once did I bring the Taliban into this. Neither Saddam nor the Taliban represent Islam in any way shape or form, they are nothing more than fascists. These people may be forced to follow Saddam, but doesn't mean they cannot defend their Islamic culture.

By liberating the Iraqi people, does this give them freedom? Freedom to do as they wish or freedom to do as they wish as long as they conform to the western way of life?

You oppose me because I stood out and said that is is wrong to degrade the Iraqis with verbally abusive language, the same people that the coalition are "liberating," the very same people that you, yourself are defending.

We both agree that Saddam's regime is cruel and merciless, yet you feel that it's okay to refer to the Iraqi's in a derogatory manner. Not every Iraqi soldier is fighting for Saddam, and I think very few are, but they are fighting to maintain their right to believe in Islam, something that, by your own words, would be taken from them in a westernised culture.

You seem to have missed the point of my first post, that it is not okay to be degrading to the Iraqis as a culture, or nation. Saddam does not represent the true Iraqi people and more than Hitler represented the true German people.

I am neither an optimist nor a realist and have faced very real threats to my own life on more than one occasion, but I still see no reason for the abusive nature of certain comments.

Perhaps you need to think about just what you are debating with me, since it's not very clear to me. From my perspective you are defending your right to treat the Iraqi's with disrespect.

[Mordenheim]

If you call that abusive then ...

I do not understand you. You say I refer to the Iraqi people as deragatory? mind pointing out specific phrases? I refer to his butchers and thugs as scum that no society anywhere should tolerate. I do not refer to the opressed people as anything but a enslaved nation.

That radical version of Islam is spreading. I watched a very good documentry called Islam : The new face on discovery about a half a year ago. I do not hate Islam anymore then I hate christianity. There is no doubt that Christianity was used for wisespread abusive torture and control through the history of the world. I don't have to hate Islam to hate the way it is getting used in certain places to enslave masses of people. I don't have to want them to follow my way of life to disagree with the abusive nature that this religion is ussed currently in certain places.

Sadam is getting removed no thanks to all these peace loving idiealists (anti-american, Bush, wolf in sheeps clothing). Do people really think this new Iraqi government will praise France, Russia, and all the people doing every thing they could to stop this war before it even began? Only time will tell but again I would be willing to make a bet who they will see as the people who freed them and the people who tried to stand in the way.

The whole premise you make of me disrespecting the opressed Iraq's is insane. I have no idea where you are getting this from but I ask for some clarification. Did you hear the report about the man who blew himself up and killed the American soldiers? Did you hear how his family was taken hostage and he was forced to? Did you see the tape of them shooting at Iraqi's trying to make it to the soldier's? I don't blame these people nor disrespect them. I brought the Taliban in for a specific reason. The same group crying about Iraq now were crying about Afghanistan. We are still in Afghanistan.

Again, when the war is over I hope we can all have another conversation. I will make sure to keep note of these debates here and see how it all play's out.

[Mordenheim]

"but they are fighting to maintain their right to believe in Islam, something that, by your own words, would be taken from them in a westernised culture"

I must have speed read past this. This is the most insane thing I have read yet by anyone on any forum.

I bet we have more people following Islam then France, Russia, Canada and Germany put together. You are seriously mixing thing's up here. The RADICAL form of OPPRESIVE islam would not be allowed in ANY civilized country. You are free to practice ANY religion in the United States you wish. You can even follow Satanism if you wish as long as NO ONE is hurt and no law is broken. The government here has no right to stop you from practicing you're faith including Islam.

man o man.......

I know people in Canada are not that naive. I meet them all the time down here in florida. I mean what the? You live in a westernised culture. What are you talking about?

[Attalus]

I would just like to say, all of this spurious debate reminds me of all of the comment of "Wellington was surprised at Waterloo," though one would think that if he was really surprised, it should redound more to hs credit that he cane so handsomely out of the scrape. Otherwise, pah, who is winning, anyhow?

[pritchke]

The same people crying about Afghanistan were wrong and they will be wrong again.

Funny thing is I was not one of them. I was for that for and I still am for having peace keepers in the region to allow the people to stabilize a government and protect them from local War Lords.

[ 04-03-2003, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Skunk]

Yes. It's a shame that the only thing that has been accomplished so far is stability in Kabul - leaving the rest of the country in anarchy.

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Skunk: Yes. It's a shame that the only thing that has been accomplished so far is stability in Kabul - leaving the rest of the country in anarchy.

I wouldn't say the scenerio is so bleak. There are areas that are still quite dangerous (some Eastern and Southern provinces), but excepting these area's the bulk of the country is stabalized, although not yet back on it's feet. The bulk of the problem is caused by rebels who are able to flee to Pakistan and safety, then return later to cause trouble. Pakistan has been trying to address this issue from their end (with some limited success) and on the Afghani side the rebels have been hit whereever they've been found (and as opposed to the USSR fiasco, the rebels are definitely getting the short life span end of the exchanges).

[wellard]

Originally posted by Skunk: Yes. It's a shame that the only thing that has been accomplished so far is stability in Kabul - leaving the rest of the country in anarchy.

ONLY! *cough* ONLY? 18 months ago iirc was not the whole country in the hands of one of the most brutal, evil governments the world has seen since pol pot? spreading its tentacles of hatred and terror like cancer through the very fabric of world unity?

I guess 18 months was a long, long time ago for people to remember *sigh*