Very Disturbing

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Dreamer128: Heh.. hopefully Mr Bush finds time to drop by Zimbabwe on the way to North Korea after the Iraq crisis is over If you are making the world a better place and all, best to go all the way.

I wouldn't have a problem with that, but the reality is they'll probibly sit around and talk about the horrors going on and how bad it is for several years allowing more to die.

[Timber Loftis]

Just to drop a note on the factual issues regarding Saddam's Regime. From 20/20 and very credible. The focus of this "Chemical Ali" story is about chemical weapons he may use again. In 1991, he killed upwards of 200,000 kurds in chemical tests in Norther Iraq. The footage of dead babies and mothers and, almost worse, the dreadful skin scaling and melting on those who survived was quite enlightening.

But, the report also included interviews with several Iraqi refugees in the US regarding indoctrination of Saddam's greatness from a young age, including how even small children know that to speak at all ill of Saddam is to damn your entire family. Usually to the goons under Chemical Ali.

From http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/...ali030328.html

March 28 — Some 14 tons of evidence against Gen. Ali Hassan Al Majid, Saddam Hussein's cousin and the man called "Chemical Ali," from more than 10 years ago — videotapes, audiotapes and documents — were airlifted out of Iraq in 1992 in the days following the Persian Gulf War.

Today that information is being scrutinized more than ever as U.S. forces approach Baghdad, and as "Chemical Ali" is believed to be one of the lynchpins of the defense of Iraq. All who know him fear he will do what he's done before and use chemical weapons.
Majid, believed to be now leading the resistance to U.S. forces in the south of Iraq, was nicknamed "Chemical Ali" because he, with apparent zeal and relish, allegedly carried out a chemical attack that killed and permanently maimed tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

Majid denies that he has carried out such atrocities, but U.S. investigators say the trove of evidence against him is damning.

Former U.S. ambassador Peter Galbraith first discovered the evidence of Chemical Ali's activities more than 12 years ago.

"Mass killers do turn out to be bureaucrats," said Galbraith. "Nazi Germany kept its records. Saddam Hussein kept his records."

One particular videotape Galbraith and his team of war crime investigators found, made by the Iraqi security services, is of an execution of Kurdish dissidents, one of countless acts of brutality ordered by Majid.

"This is an incredibly cruel figure. This, this is a man who knows how to marshal all the instruments of terror and cruelty to promote his objectives," Galbraith told ABCNEWS. "And I think he's doing it today in the south of Iraq."

And people throughout Iraq know what Chemical Ali will do to those in his way.

"You can see here the crowd that's been forced to turn out for these executions," said Galbraith, pointing to the mass of people on the videotape, including children. It was a message to not defy Saddam's rule.

And after the executions, a final indignity: "All the officials come and each of them put a bullet into the body," said Galbraith, "Everybody then bonds together in committing these acts."

"This video is just the tip of the iceberg," he said.

General Isn't Afraid to Use Chemical Weapons Again

But it was the chemical attacks, allegedly ordered by Majid, that horrified the world and serve as a warning to U.S. and British troops now.

"Children, women, men, vomiting, screaming, crying with swollen eyes," one female victim said. "Everybody was, kids, they were, they were screaming, 'We are blind.' — 250 villages were attacked, the victims left lying in the streets where they died from the clouds of gas."

"They were experimenting with the lethality of different kinds of chemical weapons. Mustard gas, cyanide, nerve agents," said Galbraith. "Women, children, men, they were the guinea pigs in these experiments."

In what is described as a tape recording of one military planning session, a voice Galbraith and other war criminal investigators say is that of Chemical Ali, boasts of his willingness to use chemicals: "I will kill them all with chemical weapons. Who is going to say anything? The international community? F--- them. The international community, and those who listen to them."

And now, those in Iraq who survived the chemical attacks are the living testament of the tactics of Saddam Hussein and his cousin Chemical Ali.

"This is the world's largest population ever subjected to weapons of mass destruction," said Christine Godsen, an expert on malformations in babies, who went back to the area where Majid killed thousands in order to track the lasting effects on those who survived.

"They hate Chemical Ali," she said. "They see him as the cause of their relatives dying, their children being born and dying. Their own suffering."

Godsen described examples of horror, of a man who was gassed as a teenager and 10 years later, is barely able to walk a few feet.

"Some of them can't feel their fingers and toes or have terrible tremors," said Godsen. "They had increased incidences of cancers and birth defects. They were suffering terribly."

Gotten Away With Murder

And for his efforts, Majid has lived the good life as Hussein's trusted henchman and mass murderer. He is cool and calculated, according to former CIA agent Bob Baer, now an ABCNEWS consultant on the Middle East.

"I don't think he is a psychopath at all," said Baer. "He just, there is nothing that he'll stop at to keep Saddam in power."

Baer also says the U.S. ignored reports of Majid's cruelty when the U.S. was helping Iraq fight Iran in the 1980s.

"The U.S. certainly knew what he was doing in the '80s," said Baer. "I mean this was not a big secret. Iraq was under threat, Saddam was about ready to fall and we turned a blind eye. So if Saddam and Chemical Ali wanted to kill Kurds no one complained."

It's a much different story now as Majid plays a pivotal role leading the fight against U.S. and British forces in the south, in the southern city of Basra, where he is also well remembered for how he put down a short-lived rebellion in 1991.

Survivors say Ali's forces arbitrarily rounded up and executed young men by the thousands.

"They take them for interrogation and mostly their fate would be execution," said Mohammed Hanon, a Shiite uprising survivor. "It was horrible, they were left to be eaten by dogs and animals."

An estimated 200,000 people were killed in Basra on Majid's orders.

"If we believed that there would not be sufficient force in the south, loyal to Saddam, willing to take the orders of Ali Hassan Majid, that was a huge miscalculation," said Galbraith.

[Reeka]

I am just trying to see that some good could come out of this horrific affair. Yes, there are other places in the world in which the human rights abuses are just as bad if not worse. But I still believe that that is no reason to not try to help things while we are there. Those other places apparently are not posing an immediate threat to us.

Really, it seems that we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. We play world-policenman we are criticized; we we don't we are critixized.

[Animal]

Originally posted by Reeka: I am just trying to see that some good could come out of this horrific affair. Yes, there are other places in the world in which the human rights abuses are just as bad if not worse. But I still believe that that is no reason to not try to help things while we are there. Those other places apparently are not posing an immediate threat to us. Really, it seems that we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. We play world-policenman we are criticized; we we don't we are critixized.

Who's criticising you for not playing policeman. The critisism comes when it's selective policing.

I have to agree with Chewbacca. If this war is being fought on the pretense of liberation and freedom for the citizens of Iraq, killing them in the process of liberating them is somewhat pointless.

I fail to see exactly how Iraq poses an immediate threat to the US, but we've flogged that horse before. Iraq DOES NOT pose an immediate threat to the US, and never has. The war is strictly about the resolutions that Saddam refused to comply with.

If the media chooses to sugarcoat it with delusions of liberation and freedom, then that's their choice, but make no mistake about it; this war has nothing to do with human rights. The only time human rights comes into this equation is when support for the disarming of Saddam is waivering, and more fuel is needed to stoke the fire.

There's nothing we can do to stop this war, but let's not pretend it's about something it's not.

[Reeka]

My statement about being a policeman was concerning the fact that when some nations get into trouble they come to the US asking us to help them (Panama, Kuwait come to mind). I wonder how critical people would have been of the US if when Kuwait asked us to drive Saddam out of their country if we had said we didn't want to get involved.

I have never said that our motives for being in Iraw are pure and pristine; however, if a by-product of our involvement there is perhaps to see a change in government and the people there being less repressed, in my opinion, that is a good thing.

I suppose it depends on what one considers an immediate threat is. If Saddam Hussein does have weapons of mass destruction that he would not hesitate to let fall into terrorist hands, then I do consider that an imediate threat.

[Animal]

Driving Saddam out of Kuwait, when Kuwait asks for help is one thing, but the situation today is completely different. I'm pretty sure the Iraqi people didn't ask to be liberated.

Agreed, I suppose if the US MUST be there, the might as well attempt to do something decent.

WoMD falling into terrorist hands could happen anywhere. Heck it's entirely possible they could be stealing some from the US as we speak. I prefer to live my life, not live my life being afraid and paranoid otherwise the terrorists have already won.

[Iron_Ranger]

Originally posted by Animal: Driving Saddam out of Kuwait, when Kuwait asks for help is one thing, but the situation today is completely different. I'm pretty sure the Iraqi people didn't ask to be liberated.

How could they ask? I think all you need to do is watch footage of all the Iraqis praising coalition troops to see what they think of the war.

Have you seen the footage of the people in, I guess it was Basra, charging for the supplies the Coalition trucks brought? If we didnt have this war they would still be suffering. I am sure its like that all across the towns, villages and citys of Iraq.

I think the point of this war has changed realy. Just look at the name, Operation Iraqi Freedom. Correct me if I am wrong but I remember the Bush cabinet talking about a different point for the war a few months ago.

But hey, they are politians, what did you expect?

Anyway, why are people against the war when the majority of Iraqi population support the war? They experince first hand. Most of the Iraqi-American population also support the war. I heard one Iraqi now living in America say 'Iraqis are going to die with the war, they are going to die with out war. They wont die long term with the war. They will die long term without the war."

*shrug* Anyway, all this has been dragged through the mud so much by now anyway, why are we will debating it?

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: Quote: Originally posted by Animal: Driving Saddam out of Kuwait, when Kuwait asks for help is one thing, but the situation today is completely different. I'm pretty sure the Iraqi people didn't ask to be liberated.

How could they ask? I think all you need to do is watch footage of all the Iraqis praising coalition troops to see what they think of the war.

Have you seen the footage of the people in, I guess it was Basra, charging for the supplies the Coalition trucks brought? If we didnt have this war they would still be suffering. I am sure its like that all across the towns, villages and citys of Iraq.

I think the point of this war has changed realy. Just look at the name, Operation Iraqi Freedom. Correct me if I am wrong but I remember the Bush cabinet talking about a different point for the war a few months ago.

But hey, they are politians, what did you expect?

Anyway, why are people against the war when the majority of Iraqi population support the war? They experince first hand. Most of the Iraqi-American population also support the war. I heard one Iraqi now living in America say 'Iraqis are going to die with the war, they are going to die with out war. They wont die long term with the war. They will die long term without the war."

*shrug* Anyway, all this has been dragged through the mud so much by now anyway, why are we will debating it? [/QUOTE]I have yet to see any evidence that suggests a majority of the Iraqi people support being invaded. That said, I have yet to see any evidence that the majority of the Iraqi people don't support being invaded either.

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: I have yet to see any evidence that suggests a majority of the Iraqi people support being invaded. That said, I have yet to see any evidence that the majority of the Iraqi people don't support being invaded either.

And there is no such evidence either. People hear some Iraqis' opinions who are in favour of the war, ignore the Iraqis' opinions against and use the former ones as the "official" point of view, silently applying it to the entire population because they'd like to think that's the case; while the real facts and real general opinion simply can't be verified at this point.

Now however, I'm not saying there's something wrong with what's most likely just wishful thinking on people's part, hoping it to be true... I just don't think it's fair to simply assume that the majority in Iraq is in favour of the US/UK invasion. Sure, I'm sure several of the US's motives are sincere and they really want to help to "free" the Iraqi people, but how do the Iraqi people know that? Blame it on propagandic indoctrination, the deception after the US abandonment in '91, ignorance of being repressed in the first place or the healthy variant of patriotism; but I don't think it would be strange for them to be on two minds over this. The situation is simply not as black and white as some people wish to portray it.

[ 03-31-2003, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[Iron_Ranger]

I have read several articals where journalist have traveled to Iraq and the people say they are in favor of an invasion. Also, like I said, look at the footage of Basra.

On a somewhat related subject, did anyone here of the woman that was hanged because she waved to American Tanks passing through? I dont have a link, I 'heard it through the grapevine' so to speak..

However,I have yet to hear of any word of Iraqi civilains throwing rocks or some such at US Soldiers.